I may be denser than most. Brush hair grading and how the different hair feels in use is still a mistery to me. Most of the affordable Silver Tip brushes I have found on the internet appear to be Super Badger or Best. Only the $200 + brushes have a really white and fluffy look to them. What I have been able to discern from the Posts I have read, is that Silver Tip, is some how more irritating in use than Super Badger or the next grade down from Silver Tip. Are the Vulfix 2234 and Muehle – Pinsel Super Badger really Super Badger or the next grade down? Am I way off or near to getting it right?
Is it real or Memorex?
- Thread starter Sure Shot Rick
- Start date
I think it could be argued that some of the really white-tipped brushes are bleached to produce that look.
The hair harvested from year to year will also differ, causing more variation in the look and feel of brushes between manufacturers and even among brushes within the same manufacturer. The super of silvertip hair selected by certain manufacturers also causes differences in the same grades -- thick versus thin, tapered versus straight, barbed versus non-barbed.
Best being less "irritating" than Super appears to be a characteristic of Simpson's brushes. From what I've gotten, the sheer density of bristle in the Supers causes them to be "stiff" rather than soft/flexible in the loft; this contributes to a scrubbier feeling, even though the tips are quite soft themselves.
Well, reading that back, I guess I'm still bewildered by the mysteries of badger hair too!?!?!
The hair harvested from year to year will also differ, causing more variation in the look and feel of brushes between manufacturers and even among brushes within the same manufacturer. The super of silvertip hair selected by certain manufacturers also causes differences in the same grades -- thick versus thin, tapered versus straight, barbed versus non-barbed.
Best being less "irritating" than Super appears to be a characteristic of Simpson's brushes. From what I've gotten, the sheer density of bristle in the Supers causes them to be "stiff" rather than soft/flexible in the loft; this contributes to a scrubbier feeling, even though the tips are quite soft themselves.
Well, reading that back, I guess I'm still bewildered by the mysteries of badger hair too!?!?!
Keep in mind that grading is somewhat subjective, however GENERALLY speaking there are THREE grades....
Pure - Typically a little larger diameter which means it's a little stiffer. Coloring is usually tan or black
Best - This is a finer hair so it's a little softer. Coloring is usually a darker tan.
Super - Pretty long and fine hair, the "softest" of the three. It's coloring is tan with a black "band" in the middle of the shaft. (Which is why this is also most commonly refered to as "Silvertip".
Pure - Typically a little larger diameter which means it's a little stiffer. Coloring is usually tan or black
Best - This is a finer hair so it's a little softer. Coloring is usually a darker tan.
Super - Pretty long and fine hair, the "softest" of the three. It's coloring is tan with a black "band" in the middle of the shaft. (Which is why this is also most commonly refered to as "Silvertip".
Check out Ron's BADGER HAIR PRIMER
Don't get hung up too much on the grades, which aren't standardized anyway. Figure out what you want in a brush in terms of softness, rigidity, aesthetics, etc. and then get something that pleases you, not someone else.
Scotto said:
Hear,hear!!
Marty
I'd say Scotto has it right. In fact, figure out what you would like, and a price range, and then ask for suggestions on a brush, rather than worrying about grade. In my limited experience, while the above statement about the three basic grades may be largely true, it sure isn't universal.
In Simpson, for example, Super is NOT softer than Best, apparently. It is pretty soft at the tip, but stiff enough to be a tad scrubby. Great if you like that, like me. Best seems to be a better (and cheaper) choice if you really like softness and luxury. (Disclaimer - this is what I have put together - I have a Super, but have not tried Best). This is probably the only instance where the statement about "Super" being more irritating than the next grade down might be true.
The basic rule seems to apply pretty well to Shavemac. But You have to know that the call what would normally be Best, "Finest" instead. To make it more confusing, the only other company to use that name applies it to the superdooper premium hair, that is a CONSIDERABLE cut above Super/Silvertip in price, Rooney. I don't know its characteristics, but have heard that Rooney Finest is stiffer than their Super/Silvertip (Although Rooney has both, I think the difference is only cosmetic).
And of course, although both Simpson and Omega/EJ Super and Silvertip could be argued to be theoretically similar grade, I'm betting most anyone who has tried both would tell you they are radically different.
And then of course there is Plisson, which have I not tried at all, and won't go into, but that's a whole nother can of wormy hair.
So, like I said, it is interesting to try to figure out all these grades, the best bet is DEFINITELY to figure who what characteristics you would like, and then search reviews and ask questions to try to settle on a brush that fits them at a price you can live with.
In Simpson, for example, Super is NOT softer than Best, apparently. It is pretty soft at the tip, but stiff enough to be a tad scrubby. Great if you like that, like me. Best seems to be a better (and cheaper) choice if you really like softness and luxury. (Disclaimer - this is what I have put together - I have a Super, but have not tried Best). This is probably the only instance where the statement about "Super" being more irritating than the next grade down might be true.
The basic rule seems to apply pretty well to Shavemac. But You have to know that the call what would normally be Best, "Finest" instead. To make it more confusing, the only other company to use that name applies it to the superdooper premium hair, that is a CONSIDERABLE cut above Super/Silvertip in price, Rooney. I don't know its characteristics, but have heard that Rooney Finest is stiffer than their Super/Silvertip (Although Rooney has both, I think the difference is only cosmetic).
And of course, although both Simpson and Omega/EJ Super and Silvertip could be argued to be theoretically similar grade, I'm betting most anyone who has tried both would tell you they are radically different.
And then of course there is Plisson, which have I not tried at all, and won't go into, but that's a whole nother can of wormy hair.
So, like I said, it is interesting to try to figure out all these grades, the best bet is DEFINITELY to figure who what characteristics you would like, and then search reviews and ask questions to try to settle on a brush that fits them at a price you can live with.
moses said:
You make some good points, but there's something else that should be noted. The "Grades" of the hair are fairly reasonable and consistant. However, that doesn't mean, as you've pointed out, that a shavemac silvertip is going to feel like a Simpson, Omega, Plisson, etc...
BUT... This isn't neccesarily due to the grade of hair used in these brushes. Moreso I think it has to do with the construction of the brush itself. Vulfix for example machine cuts some of their brushes (maybe all?). That's going to result in a brush that feels less soft against the face. Then you also have knot size, and more importantly knot density. A very dense knot is going to feel radically different from a very loose knot, even if they're made with EXACTLY the same hair. Furthermore you have to consider the shape of the brush itself. The Plisson "lightbulb" shapes are going to feel much more floppy for a given knot density as compared to a more traditional shape where the hair can support itself better, etc...
I may be going out on a limb here, but in my opinion I think brush construction has FAR more to do with the overall "feel" of a brush then what grade of hair it uses.
Likewise, good points. I completely agree that brush construction has a GREAT deal to do with it. Definitely, in my experience machine cut brushes are a bit more scratchy or less soft (less soft in the sense of scratchy, not in the sense of more firm). Knot density of course is key. I think the biggest reason my Vulfix brushes seem less firm than others, is because they are less dense. Also, loft. Longer hair = bends more = less firm on the face.
It also makes sense that the lightbulb v. fan shape would make a difference. I don't have all that similar brushes in each to compare, but honestly, for the same max loft, I think a lightbulb would be firmer, not softer. As someone else pointed out somewhere on the forum, the shorter outer bristles seem to support the longer middle ones, giving a firmer feel. Venturing a little outside my experience here though, except that my Shavemac finest is surprisingly firm for the stiffness of the individual hairs, and I think this is part of why (in addition to just density).
Finally, I do think there are some differences between similar grades. I am pretty sure that the difference between Simpsons Super and most other Super/Silvertips really IS the hair. It is REALLY thick of the shaft. Much more so than any other brush I have, including the pures. Definitely the individual hairs are stiffer than most, in my opinion. Perhaps Peter or Steve or someone with a bigger stable could chime in to give more insight into the variability of similar grades of hair between makers.
It also makes sense that the lightbulb v. fan shape would make a difference. I don't have all that similar brushes in each to compare, but honestly, for the same max loft, I think a lightbulb would be firmer, not softer. As someone else pointed out somewhere on the forum, the shorter outer bristles seem to support the longer middle ones, giving a firmer feel. Venturing a little outside my experience here though, except that my Shavemac finest is surprisingly firm for the stiffness of the individual hairs, and I think this is part of why (in addition to just density).
Finally, I do think there are some differences between similar grades. I am pretty sure that the difference between Simpsons Super and most other Super/Silvertips really IS the hair. It is REALLY thick of the shaft. Much more so than any other brush I have, including the pures. Definitely the individual hairs are stiffer than most, in my opinion. Perhaps Peter or Steve or someone with a bigger stable could chime in to give more insight into the variability of similar grades of hair between makers.
rusirius said:
I wonder if there really is a difference in the knot shape (lightbulb vs. fan) that contributes to firmness? If the knot has density, I would think it wouldn;t matter which shape it is, as the hair densituy would support it. However, anecdotal evidence would seem to show a difference.
Maybe because the fan-shaped knots have the longer outside hair, they appear (visually/tactually) to be more open at the top -- reducing the density and firmness toward the tips. Furthermore, pushing the brush into the face to feel the firmness in the base of the knot only further opens the bloom, and a exacerbating the perception of floppiness.
Differences in similar hair grades -- you bet. Take for example Shavemac. The silvertip hair used about 16 months ago was described as almost rubbery feeling in the knot. Quite firm, yet very soft at the tips only. Bernd wound up changing to a different silvertip hair by customer demand. Now we have Shavemacs with very slender, silky, smooth hair. I can clearly see the difference in the hair between my 436 & SMF-II.
Maybe because the fan-shaped knots have the longer outside hair, they appear (visually/tactually) to be more open at the top -- reducing the density and firmness toward the tips. Furthermore, pushing the brush into the face to feel the firmness in the base of the knot only further opens the bloom, and a exacerbating the perception of floppiness.
Differences in similar hair grades -- you bet. Take for example Shavemac. The silvertip hair used about 16 months ago was described as almost rubbery feeling in the knot. Quite firm, yet very soft at the tips only. Bernd wound up changing to a different silvertip hair by customer demand. Now we have Shavemacs with very slender, silky, smooth hair. I can clearly see the difference in the hair between my 436 & SMF-II.
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