Is .25 Micron Paste Really Necessary or overkill?

[jcborr00]

Hello Everyone,

When I hone my razors, I usually go the following route:
-1k, 4k, 8k, Coticule or Escher and then strop on linen/leather.

Recently I began adding .50 micron and .25 micron diamond pasted linen to the line-up and had really good results.

My question: Is anything under .50 really needed? Does it make that much of a difference? If so should I go down to .10 or .05?

 

[Wid]

Hello Everyone,

When I hone my razors, I usually go the following route:
-1k, 4k, 8k, Coticule or Escher and then strop on linen/leather.

Recently I began adding .50 micron and .25 micron diamond pasted linen to the line-up and had really good results.

My question: Is anything under .50 really needed? Does it make that much of a difference? If so should I go down to .10 or .05?

Only you can answer that. I like a coti or Escher edge on its own but if you like .25 then enjoy.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, your face will tell you if it can handle it. My face says no. I prefer an Jnat or Ark edge.

Much about honing and preference is about what your skin can handle and the coarseness of your beard.

Do yourself a favor and have a razor honed on a Jnat or Coticule. You may find your ladder is on the wrong wall.

Razor honing/shaving is not just about keenness. It is, keenness and comfortable, there should be no burning or blood.

Sharp is easy.

 

[Gamma]

What is necessary or overkill is up to the user.
For me, sub micron abrasives are not necessary to get great shaves.
When I was new to honing on Coticules I was using .25 µm mono diamond to bump sharpness.
It was the lesser of two evils at that time.
These days, when I play around with compounds, it's for other reasons. I can make edges extremely sharp using compounds but I don't see those edges as improved or better in a practical sense.

 

[jcborr00]

Thanks for replies. Figured it would be all up tp preference. I agree that too sharp isn't always better. I also noticed that using pastes on different grinds (Full, half and 1/4 hollow) also has a different effect. Such as using it on full or extra hollow, get's the razor extremely sharp and on a wedge 1/4 hollow not as much if that makes sense.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“I also noticed that using pastes on different grinds (Full, half and 1/4 hollow) also has a different effect. Such as using it on full or extra hollow, get's the razor extremely sharp and on a wedge 1/4 hollow not as much if that makes sense.”

Yes, the edge gets thinner. But not all razors can handle the thinning and edges will not last, you start to see micro pitting on the edge because the steel is too thin.

A lot depends on the paste, Diamonds are very abrasive and cut deep/deeper. CBN not as much, Chrome, Ferrous Oxide and Cerrium not so much.

Also, the substrate matters, Nylon, Cotton, leather, cardboard and paper will all perform differently with the same paste. The other issue with pasted strops is contamination. Airborne dust is much large than nano paste and is as abrasive. If you start to see random deep stria on your bevels, that is from a contaminated strop. That deep random stria will end in a chip at the edge.

 

[jcborr00]

“I also noticed that using pastes on different grinds (Full, half and 1/4 hollow) also has a different effect. Such as using it on full or extra hollow, get's the razor extremely sharp and on a wedge 1/4 hollow not as much if that makes sense.”

Yes, the edge gets thinner. But not all razors can handle the thinning and edges will not last, you start to see micro pitting on the edge because the steel is too thin.

A lot depends on the paste, Diamonds are very abrasive and cut deep/deeper. CBN not as much, Chrome, Ferrous Oxide and Cerrium not so much.

Also, the substrate matters, Nylon, Cotton, leather, cardboard and paper will all perform differently with the same paste. The other issue with pasted strops is contamination. Airborne dust is much large than nano paste and is as abrasive. If you start to see random deep stria on your bevels, that is from a contaminated strop. That deep random stria will end in a chip at the edge.

I never even thought about contaminating the strop and how if the metal gets too thin it will micro pit. I've been using an old linen strop for some time now. Sounds like covering it in plastic or away from the elements might be a good idea.

 

[Jud]

I have tried stone to shave edges. Using my JNAT and my Suehiro G20. They will produce a nice shaveable edge. It will tree top and pass HHT. But .5 micron spray on canvas strop before leather strop, my face is much happier! As far as the .25 I will not know until my shipment arrives today. If I wasted money or not. Only the shave will tell. I will use my daily workhorse to see if there is a difference. Might take a few shave to see if it is better or just my mind justifying the additional money spent.

 

[jcborr00]

I have tried stone to shave edges. Using my JNAT and my Suehiro G20. They will produce a nice shaveable edge. It will tree top and pass HHT. But .5 micron spray on canvas strop before leather strop, my face is much happier! As far as the .25 I will not know until my shipment arrives today. If I wasted money or not. Only the shave will tell. I will use my daily workhorse to see if there is a difference. Might take a few shave to see if it is better or just my mind justifying the additional money spent.

Awesome! Looking forward to your finding on the .25 spray!

 

[Jud]

Well, box arrived after I had shaved, with the Jende Poly Diamond Emulsion & Jende Nanoultra Cloth Strop .5 & .25. Loading strops was easy, they have a video which is helpful. Stropping felt like using a King stone, velvet smooth. I was not expecting that feed back. It was different then anything I have used in the past. I did 50 passed on both, no leather after. Razors used were August Herring 54 Vero Solingen & a Thiers Monneret. Both had no issues passing HHT.

Both came off a King 1/6 combo, Shapton 12K, & Suehiro G20K prior to this and have been used for a couple of weeks.

As for the price I think they should be less, but it is what it is. I have spent more on much dumber stuff.

 

[Jud]

Ok well I did not think this out very well and just freaking went with it. So there was not a control razor, there was not a .5 micron razor, to compare to the .25 micron. To add to the confusion I stropped the Bema and shaved with it instead. Shave was very nice. WTG and XTG. Soap was A & E Vanilla de Tabac matching aftershave. As far as the difference between .5 and .25 I can say it was not much if any. Difference might be in my head, but my chin and my jaw feels smoother. It could have easily been my shave technique was better today. I do not see a point in going to any smaller of micron. Is the .25 micron going to make your shave better, well that will be for you to decide. At the end of the day I enjoyed my shave, no burn , nicks, red dots, or cuts. Will I continue to use the .25, well I will have to hone two razors and strop at different microns and see if there is any difference. And try not to get excited cause I got a new toy. But after using Jende Ultranano Strops I purchased all below .5 and spray.

 

[Gamma]

If you are seeing rogue scratches in your bevel after using a pasted strop, it's often caused by particle clumping, not dust.

Micro pitting can happen on any steel, thin or otherwise. Steel that has been polished is usually more resistant. Edges sharpened on sub micron particles are very polished. If the blade is dried off well after use, micropitting isn't going to be an issue, and if it isn't dried off well, then any edge can pit...regardless of how it was sharpened.

If any two edges, regardless of grind, but made of the same exact steel, have a 17 degree bevel, then they both have the same edge width.
Putting them on a pasted strop with equal work will yield identical wear on each.
One will not be affected more by the paste simply because it is more hollow.

An abrasive will not affect different grinds differently.
Honing a wedge is identical to honing a hollow, the same stones do the same work, regardless of grind.

The differences we see in these situations are due to steel types and geometry at the edge.
Different geometries are different to start off with - so a 19 degree bevel and a 17 degree bevel have two different edge widths right out of the gate. If they are both put on an abrasive with equal work, the results will be different because the starting points were different. If both razors have the same bevel angles, and they both see the same work on the same abrasive, the resulting geometry will also be the same.
And, different steel types can yield different wear patterns.

 

[JPO]

Hello Everyone,

When I hone my razors, I usually go the following route:
-1k, 4k, 8k, Coticule or Escher and then strop on linen/leather.

Recently I began adding .50 micron and .25 micron diamond pasted linen to the line-up and had really good results.

My question: Is anything under .50 really needed? Does it make that much of a difference? If so should I go down to .10 or .05?

The substrate you use is just as important, if not more important then the particle size. 0.5 micron diamond on denim will act differently on leather. I have used TI white paste on denim with good results. The same paste on leather created a harsh edge in my experience.
If i use paste i use something like TI white paste on denim, and a finer abrasive (0.1 m CBN) on hard backed leather afterwards. If i skip the first part i get a harsh edge off the cbn.
According to the science of sharp blog, the fabric stage creates some micro convexity, while the leather reduces this convexity a little without creating a foil/burr. Without this initial convexity the leather will just create a fragile foil like edge.
If i do it in this sequence i can do allot of laps on the cbn without getting into edge issues.

Yesterday i tested the use of pastes after a 8k. I deliberately created a large burr by doing allot of edge trailing strokes on the 8k.
Then i removed the burr by stropping on denim with TI white paste.
I finished with an excessive amount of strokes on 0.1 m CBN to se if i would generate a new burr, or if the edge would get too thin and fragile. That was not the case.



TI paste on denim.

Then I did some work using 0.1 micron cbn on hard backed leather. In this case the clean leather is actually making deeper striations then the cbn did.

This edge will feel like a typical fabricated blade, like a feather artist club blade. In my experience they are actually better due to the more acute bevel angle compared to a feather blade.
This type of edge works really well with problematic razors, or razors with an acute bevel angle.

 

[Jud]

Update, shaved with my Dovo this morning, 100 passes on .5 micron and 100 passes on .25 micron, and 20 on leather. All I can say is wow, I think the shave was better. But then again it could be my mind justifying the extra purchase. Either way the edge was keen and smooth. Shave was great, 2 passes WTG & XTG. I will continue to use this process and see how it progresses.

 

[Frank Shaves]

When I started honing, I could barely pass HHT and diamond paste helped me attain a sharp enough edge. Now, with more experience, my edges are sharp enough and I don’t need the paste.

There is no right or wrong. Just keep playing with the stuff until you find what works for you. And what works may change over time.