Intentionally Convex Coticule ?

[JPO]

Not everyone has a convex hone. But according to your diagram, they are wrong!

I am not suggesting anyone is doing anything wrong.
My point was just that even with a flat hone you can run into geometry problems as shown in the sketch. This can also happen on narrow hones, or during a standard rolling x-stroke on a regular stone if the contact point between the spine and the bevel is skewed.
It might not be that intuitive to everyone (it was not to me).
I have had a few new razor the had low spots due to overgrinding near the toe. Using the corner was quite useful. Maybe the sketch was taken out of context. That was not my intention. I had made some sketches on one of your photos from a different thread.

 

[JPO]

Solution No.3. Stay away from modern Dovo and TI if they can't make a straight razor.
If they valued you as a customer they wouldn't be selling you ****ty razors.

They should find a way to improve this. Böker seem to have figured this out. I don’t like the scales, but the grind and geometry have been good on the razors I have baught.

 

[Wid]

Solution No.3. Stay away from modern Dovo and TI if they can't make a straight razor.
If they valued you as a customer they wouldn't be selling you ****ty razors.

I bought one modern TI in recent times and it was my last. Wonky grind and hard steel isn’t fun. I got it straighten out enough but it’s not worth the work.

 

[JPO]

I bought one modern TI in recent times and it was my last. Wonky grind and hard steel isn’t fun. I got it straighten out enough but it’s not worth the work.

Was this one of the larger blade sizes?
I have two 6/8 TI razors. There were quite good.
I wanted a 7/8 TI, but i did not feel lucky I Baught a Böker instead.
I also think the steel is too hard. I have no edge retention issues with Böker razors that are significantly softer.

 

[Wid]

Was this one of the larger blade sizes?
I have two 6/8 TI razors. There were quite good.
I wanted a 7/8 TI, but i did not feel lucky I Baught a Böker instead.
I also think the steel is too hard. I have no edge retention issues with Böker razors that are significantly softer.

It is an entry level 6/8

 

[Steve56]

You would like this one John, it’s a 7/8, but the ‘Z’ on the tang designates a softer temper. This is from the era that they were experimenting with the hardness. There were two other letters I think. It’s still slightly heavy at the edge, but the bevels are even.

 

[Christian1212]

I wonder if slightly rounding the side of your synthetic stone would be enough to handle the warps on these blades. Being flat on the longest side with a very slight rounding for the short width. I have an older grelot with a warp - might try this on my naniwa 5k. Will post if I actually do and what the results are. I think this would be a decent compromise for someone with 1 set of stones but only a single razor or 2 with a warp. Will probably do 5k to a paste as a progression if I try.

 

[Legion]

I bought one modern TI in recent times and it was my last. Wonky grind and hard steel isn’t fun. I got it straighten out enough but it’s not worth the work.

Some years ago I had a housemate who decided to get in to SR's and rushed out and bought a new TI with a factory edge. I pretty quickly regretted offering to hone it for him. I got there, but it fought me. Could have bought three good vintage razors for what he paid.

I'd never buy a new TI.

 

[JPO]

I wonder if slightly rounding the side of your synthetic stone would be enough to handle the warps on these blades. Being flat on the longest side with a very slight rounding for the short width. I have an older grelot with a warp - might try this on my naniwa 5k. Will post if I actually do and what the results are. I think this would be a decent compromise for someone with 1 set of stones but only a single razor or 2 with a warp. Will probably do 5k to a paste as a progression if I try.

That can work quite well. However, you need to be aware that any skew angle will effect the angle of the bevel. The apex will lift of the stone and the razor will ride on the bevel shoulder.
This can to some extent be worked around by using a slight skew, and then you can refine the apex with some 90 deg strokes.
If you don't, you will probably not get good results.
I have a coticule i shaped like this. The side of the stone might work too, if you have a thick enough stone.
The contact area is really small, so flexing the bevel will also probably be an issue with flexible razors.

 

[Christian1212]

Went ahead and gave it a quick go. Tried to keep the razor perpendicular to the stone. Really just roughed in a curve with an atoma 120 plate, smoothed out with 400 then slurry stone. Felt like honing on a skinny stone that is user friendly (don't need to worry about edge biting into corner kind of thing).

Decent enough solution though where this razor might not be just a drawer queen. After work I might do some more 5k then finish on some sort of paste. Don't think I would call it curved honing, but another solution for someone with a warped razor and flat stones.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

I have two 6/8 TI razors. There were quite good.
I wanted a 7/8 TI, but i did not feel lucky I Baught a Böker instead.
I also think the steel is too hard. I have no edge retention issues with Böker razors that are significantly softer.

I have 3x modern 6/8s from TI. For the first one, I paid ~480 EUR and has a good grind. The other two ones were ~300 - 350 EUR per piece. One has a very slight wonkiness and the other one is definitely wonky, you can see the bend in the spine with the bare eye. Eventually I grinded down the spine to correct the issue. It shaves good now but I won't be able to sell it if I wanted to.

My only 7/8s TI which costed me ~500 EUR also has a slight warp in the hollow area but it is not enough to cause major issues on flat stones. You can see the effect of that in the bevel width across its length but that's all.

I do like the hard steel from time to time, but then I also don’t mind a soft steel. I basically like to have a variety of steels.

Out of ~10 Bokers acquired in last few years, only one was a bit wonky in the hollow area (can still be honed on flat stones), but then Bokers are much thinner than TI (which are not even real singing grinds in my opinion).

Except my worst Boker, all the other ones are better than my TIs in terms of grind quality. I do prefer the scales from TI though and in general I dislike the Boker scales (except the horn ones, but then these have plastic spacers, so it's meh).

Now, for the price of a new TI, you can buy a razor from a custom maker, vintage Filarmonica, Swedish, Japanese or English razor and it will most likely have a near or a perfect grind. It is obvious where the value lies.

 

[JPO]

Now, for the price of a new TI, you can buy a razor from a custom maker, vintage Filarmonica, Swedish, Japanese or English razor and it will most likely have a near perfect or a perfect grind. It is obvious where the value lies.

We have allot of custom razor makers that can produce good razor for the price of the more expensive razors from some of the larger manufacturers.
I just think they need to wake up
I think both my 6/8 TI razor were made with the same type of blanks. They both have a curved spine. However, only one has an edge profile that matches the spine.
The other one has a curved spine and straight edge. Looks strange to me, but it does shave good.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

We have allot of custom razor makers that can produce good razor for the price of the more expensive razors from some of the larger manufacturers.
I just think they need to wake up

I agree with you. The price of a factory made razor is clearly out of line when we compare to custom makers.

If I try to think why the cost of production would be higher for, let's take as an example TI, few things quickly come to mind:
- Stock: I've seen that TI has a pretty large stock of raw materials (or prima materia) and finished razors ready to be shipped when they receive an order. The final price of a product must take into account of having a stock of products which does not sell immediately. A small maker which sells everything almost immediately does not have to take into account this cost.
- More employees involved in manufacturing of the razors, independent artists making custom scales (it may surprise some but that's true), manufacturing or collaborating with other suppliers for other shaving related products such as stones, paste, strops, shaving brushes, leather pouches, set boxes.
- Employees for sales, administration, HR, create new designs/products, processes and documentation, maintenance, few other roles.
- It is paying taxes on a totally different level comparing to a small business with 1-2 employees
- Has to pay sick leave and other benefits for the employees
- Completely different cost for the maintenance of the property, utility costs, disposal, etc.
- Has a physical store
- Train new employees
- Most likely other things as well which I do miss right now.

In general, running a small business is a lot cheaper (and sometimes more efficient) than a bigger one and that directly reflects into the final cost of the product. Most custom makers make the razors in the garage next to their house. Look at RigaRazor, it is absolutely crazy a razor of that quality can be sold for that price. There is no way on earth TI, Dovo or Boker could sell something like that for that amount and have a profit on top of it.

It is also clear that TI is not 'flipping the profit with the fork'. Most of the employees are clearly common folks and they do not look like they earn much, probably minimum wage or just above it. I do not know the situation of the current owner though. Also, let's keep in mind that a big part of the sales comes from entry level razors and not from the more expensive line, so the profit margin is low.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

@ZeelandsRoem , you've captured the problem pretty well. Economies of scale, at least in production, don't really exist for a product that is largely hand-made and hand finished. You might well get better raw material pricing (but, maybe not a LOT better). There would be potential advantages in inventory management, advertising, and market placement.

 

[Stapelfeld]

I have two coticules i shaped a few years ago. They have seen allot of use. I have not needed to reshape any of them. You maintain the shape just by using them, if you keep clear of the top ridge-line. The same sweeping rolling strokes will create a convex shape if done on a flat stone.
I flatten all my flat stones before i use them.

I am not sure if the factory grinder/honer from C.V Heljestrand shaped his stone like this, or if it is just a result from hone wear on the stone. To me it looks like he is using one stone that is slightly convex, and one that is somewhat flat.

Heel leading sweeping strokes will convex the surface. So, why would you need to constantly shape an already convex shape? I don't. I am sure someone would though.

I have one new old stock C.V Heljestrand. I have no idea how it was honed from the factory, but it required little work.

View attachment 1808164

This is from Dovo. Seems to be quite similar to me.
View attachment 1808172

Billy Hukin (1966 & 1993)View attachment 1808176​

the first picture here looks concave instead of convex

 

[DrStrange]

View attachment 1810824View attachment 1810825

You would like this one John, it’s a 7/8, but the ‘Z’ on the tang designates a softer temper. This is from the era that they were experimenting with the hardness. There were two other letters I think. It’s still slightly heavy at the edge, but the bevels are even.

I have a 7 day set of modern TI
in which Saturday is marked with an R,
and all of the others are marked Y.

My first guess was that it was a craftsman's mark.

 

[Steve56]

I have a 7 day set of modern TI
in which Saturday is marked with an R,
and all of the others are marked Y.

My first guess was that it was a craftsman's mark.

Could be, but I have seen the tempering scheme mentioned before but no idea if it’s true.

 

[sbogill]

Ok I'll be the first to admit it's been a long time since I looked at hones ... but is this a thing now?
If so, can someone explain why?

I walked into this buzzsaw just the other day on another forum. It was my first time peeking in on a honing forum after about a 6-8 year hiatus. I found a convex hone thread and gave it a good skimming. I had to make a post about it and how gimmicky I thought it was and the only guy wanted to discuss it was a huge proponent. Go figure.

 

[JPO]

I walked into this buzzsaw just the other day on another forum. It was my first time peeking in on a honing forum after about a 6-8 year hiatus. I found a convex hone thread and gave it a good skimming. I had to make a post about it and how gimmicky I thought it was and the only guy wanted to discuss it was a huge proponent. Go figure.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“but is this a thing now?”

“I walked into this buzzsaw just the other day on another forum.”

It is and it’s not, a thing. It is a buzzsaw!

For honing a warped razor you need to get the heel off the stone to hone the middle. You can and guys have for years, by simply dropping the heel off the edge in a rolling X stroke. Honing on the side of the stone works, though your edge rounding may work a bit better if used sparingly.

Here is the bottom like for me, If Dovo is using these stones to hone problematic razors, why are they still producing sub-par shave ready edges? I don’t care if some one wrote it in a book, decades ago.

If Dovo was cranking out smoking shave ready edges, we would all be doing it.

There are many roads to Rome, it may be an elaborate solution to a non-existent problem.