In the beginning....

[Brett G]

Joe,
A fast stroke, by nature, is a light stroke. Since the entire point of reduction is to get to the finishing stage with zero irritation, keeping the blade off of your skin is key. There are two ways to do it. You can either goop up your skin and beard with as much "protection" as possible and shave slowly (as such a barrier demands) or you can keep your barrier thin & wet and shave with more speed. We are esentially saying the same thing. When I say speed I mean longer flowing stokes instead of short pecks. Of course, there is a finite limit to how fast you can go. My rule of thumb is to shave as fast as you can while maintaining control of the razor. One caveat: It takes a little bit of practice and is something that needs to be worked up to. Shaving with more speed demands a sharper blade (Feather). While I think that the Merkurs are fantastic and probably the best "all-around" blade available, they will drag too much when moved quickly through dense hedge.

On a personal note, I will be out of town for the next week and want to wish you all a relaxing and safe Labor Day.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I'm understanding this to mean the same thing I said. Smooth flowing strokes would be the lightest and overall give the quickest shave (coincidentally).

It would also be possible to move the razor in very quick short strokes. The razor may actually be moving faster during such strokes, but it's not likely you could maintain a light touch with the stop and go movement, not to mention control.

Joe,
A fast stroke, by nature, is a light stroke. Since the entire point of reduction is to get to the finishing stage with zero irritation, keeping the blade off of your skin is key. There are two ways to do it. You can either goop up your skin and beard with as much "protection" as possible and shave slowly (as such a barrier demands) or you can keep your barrier thin & wet and shave with more speed. We are esentially saying the same thing. When I say speed I mean longer flowing stokes instead of short pecks. Of course, there is a finite limit to how fast you can go. My rule of thumb is to shave as fast as you can while maintaining control of the razor. One caveat: It takes a little bit of practice and is something that needs to be worked up to. Shaving with more speed demands a sharper blade (Feather). While I think that the Merkurs are fantastic and probably the best "all-around" blade available, they will drag too much when moved quickly through dense hedge.

On a personal note, I will be out of town for the next week and want to wish you all a relaxing and safe Labor Day.

 

[methodshaving.com]

I think perception has a lot to do with it as well. Here Rich is following the begginer step and making short controlled 1" cuts. As he is improving the cuts become faster, and more precise over a longer line. Each cut will in turn remove more hair and make it easier as you go. The perception from this view point is I am going really fast, the reality is you are really more comfortable and cutting far better than before. This is why the emphasis in the begining is on cutting well in a repeatable manner, not things like grain. But I digress.

The reality as as you get better you make a longer stroke, as you can control the blade angel more precisely over a longer line. Then you reach that full flowing stroke with total angle control over the entire line. As you get better and more controlled it is natural to go faster. As Brett pointed out this is when the advantage of a Feather blade starts to flex it real muscle. It is also about the time you really get the hang of no or even negative pressure.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I can't imagine that the products caused irritation. They're totally natural.

You need to look at your technique. Are you getting a good lather and is it staying moist? Are you reducing the beard in the early passes (not going down to skin), just trying to work down to a fine stubble? Don't go over any spots where you've shaved off lather. If you don't go down to skin, you won't cause irritation.

When you finally get down to the stubble you should be able to remove it with a very light touch. For that pass it might help to add some of the paste directly to the face.

 

[Joe Lerch]

I agree about the irritation, but most of it comes from additives or perfumes, not natural things like olive oil soap.

What razor are you using?

BTW, the cube lather is plenty slick, and if you apply the paste directly to the face, it is also very slick. You only get irritation when the blade touches skin, so it's impossible during a reduction pass. What I'm thinking is that you're introducing the irritation on the seond pass. Are you trying to go to skin? There are no hard and fast rules. The idea is to have a fine stubble before you go countergrain. If you leave too much, the blade will hook under the whiskers and you'll need too much pressure to cut. That pressure also lifts the skin into the blade.

We didn't say anything about blade angle. Is it the flatest when you get down to skin? That's a big source of irritation.

Another thing you could try is to use shave oil for the pass when you go down to skin. Usually I don't like it because it makes the whiskers slippery and hard to cut. But when you have only fine stubble left that won't happen, but you'll get excellent lubrication for the countergrain cut.

Thanks for the reply Joe. I can assure you that I have followed Charles recommendations to the letter. The lather is copiously moist, I am not shaving to the skin on the first pass, I am not going over spots where there is no lather. I am confident that I am using techniques that have been irritation free for thousands of shaves. My initial observations using the cube coupled with the paste is that the lather is not as lubricating and protective as a good cream, and is more like a shave soap, which I tend not to prefer.

On another note, just because a product is "all natural" does not mean it will not cause irritation. An all natural product does not guarantee irritation-less shaving, as there are so many unique qualities to each of the billions of human being's skins. While it may lessen the possibility of irritation when spread out among a large group sampling, individual results are impossible to predict

Upon reflection, I am wondering if the feather blade is the culprit. Although I used the lightest possible touch, it may be that the feather is not for me. I have used feather blades several times in the past, and have had some irritation each time, the which I do not seem to get from Merkur or more generic brands.

I will exhaust my current feather blade, than use a different DE blade. Perhaps the blade's the thing!

 

[Brett G]

Honk,
As I stated in the original post, Method Shaving by the book can take quite a while to get used to. Particularly if you are an experienced wet shaver. A lot of guys take to it like a fish to water. Others have a much steeper learning curve. I fell into the later group. If you decide to stick with it, continue to ask specific questions and it will come together.

As to your initial lack of success, yes the Feather blade could very well be part of the problem. I could not use them for the first couple of months. I find speed to be the X factor with those blades. Cutting too slowly gives them time to dig in. Merkurs are a fine substitute in the meantime.

You also mentioned that you use a Gillette DE. While I find them wonderful for the reduction passes (Forms 1-3), they are more challenging to finish with. Gillettes don't bend the blade as much as Merkur razors and thus have a steeper blade angle (Joe alluded to blade angle in his post). This is great for reduction but can be a hinderance during the finish. Because of this, Gillettes need to be opened up more to get adequate traction (at least 4 or 5 in my experience) which gives you less margin for error, especially with those Feathers.

Good luck.

 

[Joe Lerch]

Could you explain this a little more? At SMF a few of us are experimenting with using Feathers in different razors. At this point we have found, to our surprise, that the Feather blades amke a Merkur slant and Futur at least as good as a fine str8 in terms of quality and closeness of shave.

However, there's a lot of inconsistency in how Feathers work (or don't work) for different people. I haven't been able to figure it out. This speed may have something to do with it, so please elaborate.

I find speed to be the X factor with those blades. Cutting too slowly gives them time to dig in.
Good luck.

 

[methodshaving.com]

Honk, Joe ....

Blade speed is a big factor with the feather. Think of it this way, the more chances the blade has to land on skin the higher the rate of irritation, then factor in the scary sharpness. When you use short strokes, 1" strips, etc.. You are stoping the blade a lot per pass. The blade only needs a microsecond to cause irriation at those levels of sharpness. If you stop your blade 5-10 times per quadrant you can see you have a lot of room for irritation. If you use long flowing strokes you minimize the probablity that the blade will stop and touch skin.

When you are learning blade work it is more important to focus on cutting each little strip cleanly so you learn angle and the contours of your face. As you get better you are able to adjust the angles along the conoturs in a single stroke. As you improve your speed will increase, it is a natural progression and the focus should always be on cutting effectively on a per stroke basis.

What is fairly obvious among the large majority of users is the feather is a sharper blade than a merkur. What is not agreed upon is one better than the other. I think the answer lies in you blade work style. If you can make long flowing strokes the feather will work for you. If you make short strokes the Merkur is the blade to use.

 

[Joe Lerch]

You don't have to shave any particulaar way for the products to work. But they are designed for an optimum style of shaving. Based on what Adam said if you want to continue with short choppy strokes use the Merkur blades.

Most of the prnciples of method shaving just are formalizations of good wet shaving practice. That's what Adam is talking about not the products. Nobody has to do it that way and if you have learned to shave a different way that works for you, it should still work with those products. You just won't be using them to their best advantage, and other products may work better.

I can't imagine that the products I have just purchased require a total revamping of my shaving style. I have been obtaining outstanding shaves using top quality products and a DE for many years. I can't imagine that using a cube and some paste would require total retooling. If that is the case, my conjecture would be that the product is of poor quality. That is not something I am willing to venture at this point, as many of you on here have obtained superior shaves with this product.

If I do not obtain good results with the feather, I will be switching to a generic DE blade. If I still do not obtain good results at that point, my conclusion would be that the product is not right for me.

I am betting that it is the feather.

I will, however, take longer flowing strokes and see if that helps.

Thanks.

 

[methodshaving.com]

Honk,

I hate to say it but... Yes these products do require you to revamp your shaving style. A pure HydroLast shave, this means no english cream additives, is a very different animal than traditional shave systems. The producst are designed to provide a very close and comfortable shave without chemicals. To make this work it requires a style of shaving that takes advantages of this. These key style changes require:

1. A higher velocity environment for reduction, provided by the cube and shave paste. This provides a mechanism for faster cutting.

2. A large bucket brush, to provide tons of water. Water, water, water... I cant say this enough. This is wet shaving after all, and water is your best freind.

3. Very Sharp steel. Feather blades, 0.025 micron straights, etc. The sharper the steel the faster you will need to move the blade itself. In order to do this you will need an environement capable of not slowing the blade down, see point 1.

The thing about a pure HydroLast cutting environment is that is a bit unforgiving. You will quickly now just how good or bad your blade work really is. If your blade work is really good this stuff will cut you close, fast and comfortable. If you blade work is not up to speed, well you can expect to find your weak areas very quickly.

 

[Joe Lerch]

If we were talking about reducing passes, you're not getting to the skin, so I assume you're only referring to passes that actually get to the skin.

However, I understand it is your philosophy that when you get to the skin, you need a slower environment. I have adopted this in my shaving by applying shaving oil when I'm ready to cut to skin, and it has made a significant difference. I think it's because of the extra skin lubrication.

Isn't there an inconsistency here? If speed is the solution to Feather problems, it certainly wouldn't make a difference on reducing passes. On the other hand when it would make a difference, we'e reducing speed.

Honk, Joe ....

Blade speed is a big factor with the feather. Think of it this way, the more chances the blade has to land on skin the higher the rate of irritation, then factor in the scary sharpness.

 

[Brett G]

Joe,
You hit on a very good point. The Feather blade is best suited for the high velocity of the reduction passes. It is not ideal for the lower velocities of the finishing pass. I have been experimenting for many months trying to find the best combination. I believe that velocity needs to drop during the shave culminating in a heavier, slower barrier at finishing. This does not play to the strenghts of the Feather.

I have found four possible courses of action;
The first is using two razors, one loaded with a Feather for reduction and the other loaded with a Merkur for the finish. I have gotten great results this way but it does use blades twice as fast.

You can forego the lower velocity and keep things as wet and fast as possible. The key here is opening up the blade exposure in order to get the necessary traction. This works well but leaves little margin for error. For very skilled bladesmiths only.

You can drop the velocity as discussed and just stick with the Feather. Not ideal but not terrible either. Requires a lighter touch and discipline to know when enough is enough.

The fourth possibility, and one that I just started trying, is to use two razors with two different Feather blades. What a lot of us are noticing, and Adam just pointed out on Methodshaving.com, is that the Feathers only keep there hyper-sharpness for a few shaves. After that they basically revert to a Merkur. I have started using a brand new Feather in a Gillette adjustable for three days of reduction and then moving it over to my Progress for three days of finishing work. When the three days in the Progress are up the blade hits the trash can, the blade in the Gillette moves over, and the cycle continues. So far the results have been outstanding. It allows me to use the correct sharpness at a given velocity while still getting a full week out of each blade. The only downside is that it requires two razors.

 

[Joe Lerch]

Interesting!

I've kind of been doing a combination of the things you mentioned. For a while, I was using a different razor at the end, kind of a custom razor, an injector with a trimmed down Feather str8 blade. It had incredible finishing qualities, if you kept an extremely light touch, because it was uper sharp and could just glide over the face and cut anything. With the light pressure there was no danger of nicks.

Now I'm just using one razor,and I use the Feather blades for a lot longer than you, at least a full week before I start seeing deterioratino in my shave. The use of the oil on the last pass, like the CR shaving balm, makes all the difference. The velocity comes down, but with a light touch, theres no danger from the blade. It just doesn't grab on that surface. The whiskers are so short that it doesn't really them up.

Joe,
You hit on a very good point. The Feather blade is best suited for the high velocity of the reduction passes. It is not ideal for the lower velocities of the finishing pass. I have been experimenting for many months trying to find the best combination. I believe that velocity needs to drop during the shave culminating in a heavier, slower barrier at finishing. This does not play to the strenghts of the Feather.

I have found four possible courses of action;
The first is using two razors, one loaded with a Feather for reduction and the other loaded with a Merkur for the finish. I have gotten great results this way but it does use blades twice as fast.

You can forego the lower velocity and keep things as wet and fast as possible. The key here is opening up the blade exposure in order to get the necessary traction. This works well but leaves little margin for error. For very skilled bladesmiths only.

You can drop the velocity as discussed and just stick with the Feather. Not ideal but not terrible either. Requires a lighter touch and discipline to know when enough is enough.

The fourth possibility, and one that I just started trying, is to use two razors with two different Feather blades. What a lot of us are noticing, and Adam just pointed out on Methodshaving.com, is that the Feathers only keep there hyper-sharpness for a few shaves. After that they basically revert to a Merkur. I have started using a brand new Feather in a Gillette adjustable for three days of reduction and then moving it over to my Progress for three days of finishing work. When the three days in the Progress are up the blade hits the trash can, the blade in the Gillette moves over, and the cycle continues. So far the results have been outstanding. It allows me to use the correct sharpness at a given velocity while still getting a full week out of each blade. The only downside is that it requires two razors.

 

[methodshaving.com]

Joe,

This can apply to both reduction and finishing. Every time you stop the blade you have a chance getting to skin and causing irritation. Think about what happens when you stop the blade on a straight, it has a chance to trench and cut.

If we were talking about reducing passes, you're not getting to the skin, so I assume you're only referring to passes that actually get to the skin.

However, I understand it is your philosophy that when you get to the skin, you need a slower environment. I have adopted this in my shaving by applying shaving oil when I'm ready to cut to skin, and it has made a significant difference. I think it's because of the extra skin lubrication.

Isn't there an inconsistency here? If speed is the solution to Feather problems, it certainly wouldn't make a difference on reducing passes. On the other hand when it would make a difference, we'e reducing speed.