Iconoclastic?

[Quaznoid]

A recent post labeled me iconoclastic, i.e., a person who challenges widely held beliefs. I accept that label and I wear it proudly. I’ve always acted that way and I challenge entrenched thinking in all fields, not only wet shaving.

I see that penumbras of myth and tradition burden all human activities and beliefs, and these often replace or impair truth or reality. The sooner these are swept away, the better.

In wetshaving, the notions that more expensive is better, that elaborate rituals of preparation, hair removal and aftercare are necessary, or that esoteric products or tools are required get in the way of what is a very simple activity. Many of these beliefs have risen to the status of canon law, and too much of our discussion and advice promotes this evangel.

These are only my opinions, of course, and I’m certain others see it differently and will say so, and I welcome it.

I return to this subject (again!) because I want to save wetshaving from its enthusiasts. If we continue to pursue the next shiny thing, that ever more exclusive razor, soap, brush we will feed the upward current of expense and exclusivity, and force out the frugal, the modest and the neophyte.

I propose we pledge to spend no more than $25 on any one razor, brush, soap, aftershave, etc., which is very generous as to some products. Because we are in control. If we refuse to spend more, prices will come down. That formerly $50 razor will sell for $25 or it won’t sell at all, and retailers will find a way or they’ll go out of business. And we will all enjoy great shaves at lower prices and new shavers will join our ranks to share in the savings. It’s up to us. We can do this. And why not?

 

[JimL911]

Most of my soaps are over $25.
Show me a $25 razor that is aggressive and not zamak.
No way would I touch a $25 badger brush.
You're on your own.

 

[JCinPA]

I think you make some good points, but I don't agree with your prescription or your economics.

1. I would like to see more posts in the Newbie section recommend good basic equipment, and not recommend a brand new shaver get a $200 razor "because it will be awesome and the last razor you buy!" Or recommend $50 shaving soaps because they are acolytes for that brand. New shavers should be steered toward good beginner gear, like an EJ DE89, Muhle R89 or Parker razor for $30-50. Given recent inflation, that is perfectly reasonable, and the fact that a Gillette Tech is available on eBay for $15 or 20 notwithstanding. That may be intimidating to a new shaver, doing research and evaluating a seller's rating, etcetera. Cella shaving soap, Haslinger, or Proraso or TOBS creams are also reasonably priced, and an excellent JeCo or Yaqi synthetic brush can be had for under $20. Also, stick with blades that are reasonable and over 80% of our members like, like Astras or GSB blades. Recommendations that a brand new shaver find some cheap, vintage razor on eBay or get a huge blade sampler, or start with a Barrister & Mann soap are not appropriat, IMNSHO. But paying about $100 or somewhat less to assemble a good basic kit is something I'd like to see more of in the newbie forum.

2. This:

"If we refuse to spend more, prices will come down. That formerly $50 razor will sell for $25 or it won’t sell at all, and retailers will find a way or they’ll go out of business."

Is quite simply wrong, and shows lack of understanding of basic economics. The buyer does not set prices manufacturers' must meet or go out of business. Rather, manufacturers must examine the cost of materials, labor, and distribution, and see if they can make a product with a sufficient profit margin or not. Prices will adjust until the market is cleared, and the manufacturer can make a decent profit. If they are overcharging, some other maker will undercut them and they will have to adjust their margins downward, that's how that works. You can get a copy of Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson for free in PDF here:

https://leeconomics.com/Literature/Henry%20Hazlitt%20Economics%20in%20One%20Lesson.pdf

If you PM me your address, I'll mail you a hard cover copy. I get them by the case and give them away.

3. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment that cost has little to do with value in this game. The excellence of soaps like Cella and Haslinger at their pricepoint proves this in spades. However, I've recently become a huge fan of Saponidicio Veresino and happily pay the price to acquire it. This is personal choice and I don't delude myself that I'm getting 6X the quality of soap over Haslinger (diminishing marginal utility is a real thing) and I don't care what their profit margin is, frankly, I like their product enough to not gripe about the price. I do think it would be gross negligence to tell a new shaver in the Newbie forum they should use S.V. though, see point 1, above.

Wet shaving can be an inexpensive activity. I shaved with a 34C, ten cent blades, and Cella and Tabac for about 4-5 years. I was happy. Recently, I've gotten a couple more costly razors and soaps, and I'm still happy. You do you, I'll do me, and as long as the enthusiasts are not inappropriately trying to lead the new shave down the most costly path out of the gate, all is right with the world.

You do seem to be on a bit of quest, though. Perhaps that was the source of the iconoclast comment? I'm glad you enjoy shaving with your bath soap, yes it works. It's not for me, though. But like I said, you do you!

 

[JCinPA]

Just kidding with that last image, I thought it was funny. It is not my intent to give offense.

 

[Frito Ray]

I too am a cheap shaver and don’t believe one needs to spend a fortune to get a good shave.

Prices have gone bananas, but these prices are also what draws more players into the game. True, some players focus on hyper expensive products, put there are quite a few who also give us access to cheap products from around the world.

Most people get over the FOMO mentality, but you can’t force the issue. You have to let people make their own mistakes and trust they will eventually snap out of it.

 

[WetShaveVet]

I think that like you, I am a daily shaver. It isn't a hobby. It's what I do. I don't have much "stuff". A half dozen soaps and brushes. 8 razors. None of which are artisan razors worth hundreds.

But there has always been a market for luxury items. I drive a three year old Explorer. My wife drives an eight year old Crosstrek. In a neighbourhood awash in new BMW's and Mercedes. That's ok. If they can afford it, and the ones I know certainly can, let them. I could too, but I don't buy them. My choice.

Though I can't see buying a new Mercedes with the first year depreciation that comes with it others don't seem to mind. Their choice.

 

[WetShaveVet]

I think you make some good points, but I don't agree with your prescription or your economics.

1. I would like to see more posts in the Newbie section recommend good basic equipment, and not recommend a brand new shaver get a $200 razor "because it will be awesome and the last razor you buy!" Or recommend $50 shaving soaps because they are acolytes for that brand. New shavers should be steered toward good beginner gear, like an EJ DE89, Muhle R89 or Parker razor for $30-50. Given recent inflation, that is perfectly reasonable, and the fact that a Gillette Tech is available on eBay for $15 or 20 notwithstanding. That may be intimidating to a new shaver, doing research and evaluating a seller's rating, etcetera. Cella shaving soap, Haslinger, or Proraso or TOBS creams are also reasonably priced, and an excellent JeCo or Yaqi synthetic brush can be had for under $20. Also, stick with blades that are reasonable and over 80% of our members like, like Astras or GSB blades. Recommendations that a brand new shaver find some cheap, vintage razor on eBay or get a huge blade sampler, or start with a Barrister & Mann soap are not appropriat, IMNSHO. But paying about $100 or somewhat less to assemble a good basic kit is something I'd like to see more of in the newbie forum.

2. This:

"If we refuse to spend more, prices will come down. That formerly $50 razor will sell for $25 or it won’t sell at all, and retailers will find a way or they’ll go out of business."

Is quite simply wrong, and shows lack of understanding of basic economics. The buyer does not set prices manufacturers' must meet or go out of business. Rather, manufacturers must examine the cost of materials, labor, and distribution, and see if they can make a product with a sufficient profit margin or not. Prices will adjust until the market is cleared, and the manufacturer can make a decent profit. If they are overcharging, some other maker will undercut them and they will have to adjust their margins downward, that's how that works. You can get a copy of Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson for free in PDF here:

https://leeconomics.com/Literature/Henry%20Hazlitt%20Economics%20in%20One%20Lesson.pdf

If you PM me your address, I'll mail you a hard cover copy. I get them by the case and give them away.

3. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment that cost has little to do with value in this game. The excellence of soaps like Cella and Haslinger at their pricepoint proves this in spades. However, I've recently become a huge fan of Saponidicio Veresino and happily pay the price to acquire it. This is personal choice and I don't delude myself that I'm getting 6X the quality of soap over Haslinger (diminishing marginal utility is a real thing) and I don't care what their profit margin is, frankly, I like their product enough to not gripe about the price. I do think it would be gross negligence to tell a new shaver in the Newbie forum they should use S.V. though, see point 1, above.

Wet shaving can be an inexpensive activity. I shaved with a 34C, ten cent blades, and Cella and Tabac for about 4-5 years. I was happy. Recently, I've gotten a couple more costly razors and soaps, and I'm still happy. You do you, I'll do me, and as long as the enthusiasts are not inappropriately trying to lead the new shave down the most costly path out of the gate, all is right with the world.

You do seem to be on a bit of quest, though. Perhaps that was the source of the iconoclast comment? I'm glad you enjoy shaving with your bath soap, yes it works. It's not for me, though. But like I said, you do you!

Ha! Economics major here. Not that it did me any good in business but still a love of mine.

Liked your post.

 

[DesertIguana]

Well there is a fine link between quality and junk products. If something works and is not expensive it is on my Radar. There are many great soap that work for shaving under $15.00, but I get some people money is no object.

 

[JCinPA]

Resource on supply and demand from St. Louis Fed

Supply and Demand Lesson

Students review the determinants of supply and demand, choose which of the curves shift and why, and determine which curve will shift given a market event.

www.stlouisfed.org

Excellent story on why there are cheap and expensive razors and how they are priced, how markets work. At least when not manipulated by the government.

I, Pencil

I am a lead pencil—the ordinary wooden pencil familiar to all boys and girls and adults who can read and write. Writing is both my vocation and my avocation; that’s all I do. You may wonder why I should write a genealogy. Well, to begin with, my story is interesting. And, next, I am a mystery...

fee.org

 

[Quaznoid]

I think you make some good points, but I don't agree with your prescription or your economics.

1. I would like to see more posts in the Newbie section recommend good basic equipment, and not recommend a brand new shaver get a $200 razor "because it will be awesome and the last razor you buy!" Or recommend $50 shaving soaps because they are acolytes for that brand. New shavers should be steered toward good beginner gear, like an EJ DE89, Muhle R89 or Parker razor for $30-50. Given recent inflation, that is perfectly reasonable, and the fact that a Gillette Tech is available on eBay for $15 or 20 notwithstanding. That may be intimidating to a new shaver, doing research and evaluating a seller's rating, etcetera. Cella shaving soap, Haslinger, or Proraso or TOBS creams are also reasonably priced, and an excellent JeCo or Yaqi synthetic brush can be had for under $20. Also, stick with blades that are reasonable and over 80% of our members like, like Astras or GSB blades. Recommendations that a brand new shaver find some cheap, vintage razor on eBay or get a huge blade sampler, or start with a Barrister & Mann soap are not appropriat, IMNSHO. But paying about $100 or somewhat less to assemble a good basic kit is something I'd like to see more of in the newbie forum.

2. This:

"If we refuse to spend more, prices will come down. That formerly $50 razor will sell for $25 or it won’t sell at all, and retailers will find a way or they’ll go out of business."

Is quite simply wrong, and shows lack of understanding of basic economics. The buyer does not set prices manufacturers' must meet or go out of business. Rather, manufacturers must examine the cost of materials, labor, and distribution, and see if they can make a product with a sufficient profit margin or not. Prices will adjust until the market is cleared, and the manufacturer can make a decent profit. If they are overcharging, some other maker will undercut them and they will have to adjust their margins downward, that's how that works. You can get a copy of Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson for free in PDF here:

https://leeconomics.com/Literature/Henry%20Hazlitt%20Economics%20in%20One%20Lesson.pdf

If you PM me your address, I'll mail you a hard cover copy. I get them by the case and give them away.

3. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment that cost has little to do with value in this game. The excellence of soaps like Cella and Haslinger at their pricepoint proves this in spades. However, I've recently become a huge fan of Saponidicio Veresino and happily pay the price to acquire it. This is personal choice and I don't delude myself that I'm getting 6X the quality of soap over Haslinger (diminishing marginal utility is a real thing) and I don't care what their profit margin is, frankly, I like their product enough to not gripe about the price. I do think it would be gross negligence to tell a new shaver in the Newbie forum they should use S.V. though, see point 1, above.

Wet shaving can be an inexpensive activity. I shaved with a 34C, ten cent blades, and Cella and Tabac for about 4-5 years. I was happy. Recently, I've gotten a couple more costly razors and soaps, and I'm still happy. You do you, I'll do me, and as long as the enthusiasts are not inappropriately trying to lead the new shave down the most costly path out of the gate, all is right with the world.

You do seem to be on a bit of quest, though. Perhaps that was the source of the iconoclast comment? I'm glad you enjoy shaving with your bath soap, yes it works. It's not for me, though. But like I said, you do you!

I am educated in economics, thank you. What your analysis misses is how small a market wet-shaving makes up and how large the web community is in the overall consumer base. If we here at B&B and The Shave Den and a few others held the line, there are not enough others consumers to sustain the high end market. We DO set the price. And by chasing the expensive goods we sustain those sellers and drive the whole market upward. WE are the problem.

 

[JoWolf]

A recent post labeled me iconoclastic, i.e., a person who challenges widely held beliefs. I accept that label and I wear it proudly. I’ve always acted that way and I challenge entrenched thinking in all fields, not only wet shaving.

I see that penumbras of myth and tradition burden all human activities and beliefs, and these often replace or impair truth or reality. The sooner these are swept away, the better.

In wetshaving, the notions that more expensive is better, that elaborate rituals of preparation, hair removal and aftercare are necessary, or that esoteric products or tools are required get in the way of what is a very simple activity. Many of these beliefs have risen to the status of canon law, and too much of our discussion and advice promotes this evangel.

These are only my opinions, of course, and I’m certain others see it differently and will say so, and I welcome it.

I return to this subject (again!) because I want to save wetshaving from its enthusiasts. If we continue to pursue the next shiny thing, that ever more exclusive razor, soap, brush we will feed the upward current of expense and exclusivity, and force out the frugal, the modest and the neophyte.

I propose we pledge to spend no more than $25 on any one razor, brush, soap, aftershave, etc., which is very generous as to some products. Because we are in control. If we refuse to spend more, prices will come down. That formerly $50 razor will sell for $25 or it won’t sell at all, and retailers will find a way or they’ll go out of business. And we will all enjoy great shaves at lower prices and new shavers will join our ranks to share in the savings. It’s up to us. We can do this. And why not?

@Quaznoid do you have any hobbies sir? Just asking for a friend

 

[JCinPA]

I am educated in economics, thank you. What your analysis misses is how small a market wet-shaving makes up and how large the web community is in the overall consumer base. If we here at B&B and The Shave Den and a few others held the line, there are not enough others consumers to sustain the high end market. We DO set the price. And by chasing the expensive goods we sustain those sellers and drive the whole market upward. WE are the problem.

I am sorry, sir, but your comments do not indicate to me that you are educated in economics. My analysis does not miss anything, with respect. We can, by our actions, shift the demand curve, and manufacturers will adjust the quantity supplied based on that shift and the alternate uses for the capital they deploy to make their products, inducing some to leave the market, others to join it.

I'd suggest starting with the I Pencil essay. It's very short and brilliantly simple. That should suffice. If you need more, the Fed resource would be next and Hazlitt as the last resource. But I Pencil won't take you half an hour to read and digest.

In the interest of not making this more acrimonious, this will be my last post in this thread.

 

[DesertIguana]

One of the major cost in bring New product to market is everything that goes between Idea, to Item being sold. I love watch Shark Tank were some person comes looking for investors, and the Sharks do their thing. Everyone sitting in Sharks Chair, is a successful business person. Love their ability to look at opportunity, and send person pitching away with zero, because they believe the idea is doomed to fail.

Even the Shark make bad decisions, loose money, and make bad picks. v But like most successful business person, they do make good pick, and make money.

 

[ivan_101]

I agree with you on some points.

Have seen this situation a hundred times here. A guy who either has never used a DE razor, or has an only razor that is $30-40 wants a razor advice. Either a first razor or something more ............ (fill in whatever here). Right away a few guys will jump in and start recommending $200-250 (or even higher price) razors. This was not the case on this forum some 15-16 years ago, I can assure you.

 

[Omega48]

....
....
.... And why not?

Because believing that "boycotting" more expensive ways of shaving is the only way to preserve the possibility of enjoying great shaves at lower prices, is entrenched thinking as well?

 

[Quaznoid]

@Quaznoid do you have any hobbies sir? Just asking for a friend

Of course I do. But shaving is not one of them. Sort of. I shave because I have to but using vintage and interesting products (which translates to me as inexpensive) makes it less of a chore. Does that make it a hobby? Sort of.

 

[thombrogan]

Is the $25 limit for the whole kit or per item? There are great razors from Baili, Lord, and Wilkinson Sword for under $10, but that nickel-plated Fatip Grande for $23.60 is a humdinger of a variable-quality safety razor and doesn’t make the user choose between zamack, plastic, or being haunted by the original owner.

 

[ivan_101]

or being haunted by the original owner.

You serious?

 

[BradWorld]

@Quaznoid I applaud your frugality. And I don’t have any desire to debate your economic theories. But I like shiny things and I have the means to buy them. As much as I enjoy shaving with Arko and a $5 flea market vintage Gillette, I enjoy shaving with a Wolfman razor much more. You do you. And I will do me. Live and let live. No need to try and convert the rest of us.

 

[musicman1951]

I strongly believe the following:
1. People should buy and use what makes them happy - things that bring them a little joy.
2. Nobody should spend more on quality than they can both perceive and appreciate.
3. People are different in many wonderful, interesting ways and we should all follow our own path.

Personally, I rarely find a cheap product that is as satisfying (, performs as well, etc.) as a more expensive product. My experience with instruments, shoes, cars, pens, tools, razors, soap, tools has been that more quality costs more money. There are unquestionably many areas in my life where having a little less quality makes no significant difference, and areas where I willfully choose the cheaper item - not because it's just as good, but simply because I don't have the budget or comfort level to buy the best of everything.

I did recently purchase a razor for under $200, which I consider a reasonably judicial amount. I would not consider shaving with a $25 razor, but I don't insist everyone else follow my lead. Choice is a good thing. My brother drives a Toyota Carola and I drive an Audi A6. We both get where we're going and we're both happy with our choices. Find some joy wherever you can and enjoy your shaves.