Iconoclastic?
- Thread starter Quaznoid
- Start date
DE shaving has definitely grown in popularity since I started doing it in 2012. Many, many more vendors for all the associated products, which gives you an idea of the market.
It hasn't gone truly mainstream, though. One of our local high-end grocery chains carries VDH DE razors and blades, but that's literally the only DE merchandise I've ever seen for sale locally since the 1980s (outside of the old Art of Shaving mall store that closed several years ago).
Nobody around here carries shaving soaps or brushes anymore. In fact, the shaving sections of grocery stories and pharmacies generally have gotten smaller and more focused on beard grooming. The beard fad will go away eventually, and we'll see what happens, I guess.
Straight razors have been an extremely small niche probably since the 1930s, I'd guess. My great-grandfather used one until his death in 1952, but I can't imagine men younger than him were adopting the straight in high numbers once the DE became established after World War 1. Unlike DEs, it's too different from "modern" shaving and too involved to attract anyone but the hardcore hobbyist. DE shaving has gotten more mainstream attention lately for being sustainable and cheaper, but I don't see as much focused media attention on straights.
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I don’t think he’s demanded anyone else shave as he does. You could use empty, plastics containers from other dairy products as well: butter, sour cream, quark, cottage cheese, cream cheese…
Not only is the sky the limit, I believe he only shared the practice of using nubs of used bath soap in an otherwise emptied yogurt container because it works and to allay fears Happy Razor Fun Time absolutely requires use of expensive lather products or expensive non-foaming potions.
We don’t have to put ourselves in the poor house for decent lather, but we can if we want to.
If you like the Henson AL13+ and you are not finding it too mild, i.e., you are getting close enough without spending an inordinate amount of time, then no need for the ++. That said, I got the ++ only because I ordered it and the mistakenly packaged a + in the ++ box. They sent me a ++ and let me keep the + (which I've since PIFd). There is not a lot of difference, but there is some. I'd recommend the ++ to about any shaver as the starter, when you think of the +, think of the Schick Krona, it's that mild. But if the + makes you happy, no need to change.
That said, if it starts to seem like it's not getting the job done, the Hensons are more economical than a lot of other uber razors out there. I'd move up to the ++ before going to a $250 razor, for sure. The Henson design is a game changer, that's for sure.
Hi Quaznoid, there is factual research to back up your above opinion that elaborate approaches to shaving are necessary. I posted on this back in 2022 (link to thread below) with my research into the history of the three pass shave that, while often presented as the standard for DE/SE shaving, is really a recent creation by some hobbyists to extend enjoyable shaves and many vendors.
You are right that there is no need to purchase a lot of expensive equipment and products to realize great shaves. All of my razors were purchased for under $15 (often thanks to great sale prices such as a $12 King C. Gillette), brushes and soaps for under $10 (again some great sale prices). Note that prices have gone up since I returned to DE shaving almost 5 years ago. To replace my equipment and inventory would likely require an under $25 range for razors combined with an increased under $15 range for brushes and soaps.
Wet shaving needs enthusiasts of all types and preferences. The different perspectives make this hobby more interesting and increase engagement from all. Not sure there would be enough to keep folks engaged if everyone just shaved with a similar basic razors and Ivory soap. Also the high end enthusiasts likely provide needed funding that helps to support this hobby.
As far as pledging to a specific limit per item that should be up to each individual member based on preferences, objectives and YMMV in acquiring various shaving items. For example there are many here who are willing to pay the premium for CNC precision in their equipment that will easily take the cost of a razor north of $100. A preference for high end badger knots will take the price of a good brush near or above $100. Collectors of limited edition pieces of shaving equipment will be paying well north of the above prices.
Interestingly for shaving soaps and creams $25 is a fairly high limit that covers many premium and artisan products. This is the most YMMV area with preferences ranging from almost free bath soap scraps, budget Arko shavers ($1-2 per stick) to super premium prices soaps like SV and MdC. A lower target for shaving soaps would be more consistent with under $25 razors and brushes.
As always I appreciate your well written though provoking posts.
How Did the Three Pass Shave Originate? One or Two Passes Were Standard Historically.
Curious as to the origination of today's recommended three pass DE shave with, across and against the grain? Is anyone familiar with the basis for this? My attempt to research the topic hasn't found any historical basis for this beyond the more recent posts and videos from DE shavers who...
www.badgerandblade.com
Really like your thoughtful post here!I think you make some good points, but I don't agree with your prescription or your economics.
1. I would like to see more posts in the Newbie section recommend good basic equipment, and not recommend a brand new shaver get a $200 razor "because it will be awesome and the last razor you buy!" Or recommend $50 shaving soaps because they are acolytes for that brand. New shavers should be steered toward good beginner gear, like an EJ DE89, Muhle R89 or Parker razor for $30-50. Given recent inflation, that is perfectly reasonable, and the fact that a Gillette Tech is available on eBay for $15 or 20 notwithstanding. That may be intimidating to a new shaver, doing research and evaluating a seller's rating, etcetera. Cella shaving soap, Haslinger, or Proraso or TOBS creams are also reasonably priced, and an excellent JeCo or Yaqi synthetic brush can be had for under $20. Also, stick with blades that are reasonable and over 80% of our members like, like Astras or GSB blades. Recommendations that a brand new shaver find some cheap, vintage razor on eBay or get a huge blade sampler, or start with a Barrister & Mann soap are not appropriat, IMNSHO. But paying about $100 or somewhat less to assemble a good basic kit is something I'd like to see more of in the newbie forum.
2. This:
"If we refuse to spend more, prices will come down. That formerly $50 razor will sell for $25 or it won’t sell at all, and retailers will find a way or they’ll go out of business."
Is quite simply wrong, and shows lack of understanding of basic economics. The buyer does not set prices manufacturers' must meet or go out of business. Rather, manufacturers must examine the cost of materials, labor, and distribution, and see if they can make a product with a sufficient profit margin or not. Prices will adjust until the market is cleared, and the manufacturer can make a decent profit. If they are overcharging, some other maker will undercut them and they will have to adjust their margins downward, that's how that works. You can get a copy of Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson for free in PDF here:
If you PM me your address, I'll mail you a hard cover copy. I get them by the case and give them away.
3. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment that cost has little to do with value in this game. The excellence of soaps like Cella and Haslinger at their pricepoint proves this in spades. However, I've recently become a huge fan of Saponidicio Veresino and happily pay the price to acquire it. This is personal choice and I don't delude myself that I'm getting 6X the quality of soap over Haslinger (diminishing marginal utility is a real thing) and I don't care what their profit margin is, frankly, I like their product enough to not gripe about the price. I do think it would be gross negligence to tell a new shaver in the Newbie forum they should use S.V. though, see point 1, above.
Wet shaving can be an inexpensive activity. I shaved with a 34C, ten cent blades, and Cella and Tabac for about 4-5 years. I was happy. Recently, I've gotten a couple more costly razors and soaps, and I'm still happy. You do you, I'll do me, and as long as the enthusiasts are not inappropriately trying to lead the new shave down the most costly path out of the gate, all is right with the world.
You do seem to be on a bit of quest, though. Perhaps that was the source of the iconoclast comment? I'm glad you enjoy shaving with your bath soap, yes it works. It's not for me, though. But like I said, you do you!
Recall when I first joined B&B some posts good basic shaving kits for around $30. Suspect $50 makes more sense with today's prices including a Weishi or Baili razor, synthetic brush and soap or two of choice. Your recommendations, that rough out to a sub $100 kit, are good recommendations for a nice moderately priced option.
@Quaznoid , is right in the short term on demand and pricing. If demand dropped vendors would eventually have to reduce prices to clear out the product inventory. In the longer term the economics you outlined come into play and manufacturers who can't make a profit at the lower price points will have to adjust their business model or go out of business. They may shift the supply curve by adjusting their assortment to meet changes in demand patterns with lower cost items or try to reduce manufacturing costs.
Given what I suspect are low unit volumes for most higher end razor manufacturers here, my guess is there is limited flexibility on manufacturing cost and the main lever is in the area of assortment.
Actually there was recent research posted that Economics majors are one of the top ten for earnings after graduation! Success in this major demonstrates strong analytic and critical thinking skills to prospective employers.
@Lane101 I'm glad you think so, SWMBO thinks I'm an idiot. My son majored in Economics (bitten by the bug, too, not pressured by me) and his wife thinks he's a moron, as well. 
Likely more of a commentary on marriage than choice of major.
But I agree, Economics, at least positive economics as opposed to normative, does require a good analytical mind, and the ability to think in terms of systems. Kind of like an engineer but for social sciences. I probably think more like engineers because of economics training.
One bane of that is I go nuts when people think they know economics and don't. Oh well. I haven't been banned yet!
P.S. Economics is a basic subject for understanding business in general, IMO, because it requires knowledge of the drivers of human behavior. The most interesting part of the discipline now, at least to me, is behavioral economics or behavioral finance which couples psychology with classical economic theory. If a school has an entrepreneurship program, I think a degree in Economics with a minor in entrepreneurship would be a wonderful course of study for young people today.
Likely more of a commentary on marriage than choice of major.But I agree, Economics, at least positive economics as opposed to normative, does require a good analytical mind, and the ability to think in terms of systems. Kind of like an engineer but for social sciences. I probably think more like engineers because of economics training.
One bane of that is I go nuts when people think they know economics and don't. Oh well. I haven't been banned yet!
P.S. Economics is a basic subject for understanding business in general, IMO, because it requires knowledge of the drivers of human behavior. The most interesting part of the discipline now, at least to me, is behavioral economics or behavioral finance which couples psychology with classical economic theory. If a school has an entrepreneurship program, I think a degree in Economics with a minor in entrepreneurship would be a wonderful course of study for young people today.
<< Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk intensifies />>
SWMBO thinks I'm an idiot. My son majored in Economics (bitten by the bug, too, not pressured by me) and his wife thinks he's a moron, as well.
Well, I was a long way from a major in Econ. My wife thinks I'm a moron studying to be an idiot. I suspect you're correct in your assumption.
Four words every husband needs, and only these four: "Oh. Yeah. Right. Sorry." Pretty much covers any needed response regarding domestic activities.
O.H.
Yes, but I am talking about the early 80's. Economists in general weren't "stars" like they are now. They worked in the back rooms of banks, brokerage firms, and government offices. In Canada that meant mostly Toronto or Ottawa. Neither of which appealed to my fiancé. So, I married her and 40 years later we are still together. I've done just fine and yes, maybe it did help me. Not complaining at all.
Yes, Mr. Not One Heller more.
Cream Cheese Tub! It looks like Q’s tenacity has really paid off
He’s going to take shaving back to the Stone Age
That’s at the reader’s option and to their benefit, @Ankerwycke
As you know, none of our preferred lather products were discontinued or reformulated during the Paleolithic era. Not a single whinge about Haslinger’s older formula being better or complaint about lathering Williams Mug Soap is on any cave painting.
Also, the intersecting planes of knapped flint and obsidian are more acute and less prone to plastic deformation than the edges of any steel DE blade. Combined with the lack of discontinued shaving creams and soaps, the sharper blades would provide closer, gentler shaves.
And, further, not one lick of Stone Age wet shaving is at the instruction or insistence of @Quaznoid
His story is a firm iteration that top quality shaves do not require expensive equipment and his listing of daily shaves with tools that are high quality and of modest pricing attests this.
That’s so far as I can tell.
As you know, none of our preferred lather products were discontinued or reformulated during the Paleolithic era. Not a single whinge about Haslinger’s older formula being better or complaint about lathering Williams Mug Soap is on any cave painting.
Also, the intersecting planes of knapped flint and obsidian are more acute and less prone to plastic deformation than the edges of any steel DE blade. Combined with the lack of discontinued shaving creams and soaps, the sharper blades would provide closer, gentler shaves.
And, further, not one lick of Stone Age wet shaving is at the instruction or insistence of @Quaznoid
His story is a firm iteration that top quality shaves do not require expensive equipment and his listing of daily shaves with tools that are high quality and of modest pricing attests this.
That’s so far as I can tell.
I COULD do this, but would I? Nope. I enjoy the variety afforded to me with the disposable income I have. My adult kids describe me as "bourgie," which I suppose is true.
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