HHT failure after coticule honing

[Thomas Martin]

I recently purchased a Belgium coticule and used it to hone my 7/8 Dorko with the unicot method (30 laps with slurry to define the edge followed by 30 laps on diluted slurry, then 30 laps with watery slurry with taped spine and 50 on water only). I was really being attentive on my strokes and am pretty sure I did good ones. Whereas I'm capable of getting good HHT result with a synthetic progression using spyderco hones (HHT 3/4) I was unable to get a comparable result with my coticule (I didn't even get a HHT 0 bevore stropping and a 3 after 60 laps on canvas and 60 on unpasted leather). I dont think that it's my technique. I'm not into honing for a long time and may yet have much to learn. But should'nt I be able to achieve at least a comparable result as to when I use my syntetics? The shaving was acceptable. Some tugging on a 3 days growth with a decent DFS after 2 passes). What would you advise me to do? Continue with water only on a taped blade until I get a satisfactory result or going back some more steps? Is it true that coticules get minor HHT results than synthetic hones because they don't produce micro serrations?

 

[ladykate]

I'm not a Coti expert but I play one on the Internet. The Coti edge is very mild compared to edges made with synthetics or lapping film. I think you know that but I wanted to start there.

Next, I have used the Coti a bit but I have put it aside since I simply don't like the edge it makes - however, it will make a good one - just not one I like.

Next, HHT is not a great test since it is relative to your hair (or my dog's hair or...). The shaving test is probably going to be your best one. Having said that, it sounds like you are unhappy with the shaving test.

So... and at this stage... I would guess you didn't get the bevel set. Most of my new shavers require a little work to set the initial bevel and 30 Coti strokes would not have done it on the ones I have purchased. I have found that if a bevel needs to be defined, then it takes more than 30 laps (especially with a Coti) in *most* cases. Defining the bevel is the key - after that it is just polishing. However, that's just me and I'm an idiot.

 

[Woodash]

I recently purchased a Belgium coticule and used it to hone my 7/8 Dorko with the unicot method (30 laps with slurry to define the edge followed by 30 laps on diluted slurry, then 30 laps with watery slurry with taped spine and 50 on water only). I was really being attentive on my strokes and am pretty sure I did good ones. Whereas I'm capable of getting good HHT result with a synthetic progression using spyderco hones (HHT 3/4) I was unable to get a comparable result with my coticule (I didn't even get a HHT 0 bevore stropping and a 3 after 60 laps on canvas and 60 on unpasted leather). I dont think that it's my technique. I'm not into honing for a long time and may yet have much to learn. But should'nt I be able to achieve at least a comparable result as to when I use my syntetics? The shaving was acceptable. Some tugging on a 3 days growth with a decent DFS after 2 passes). What would you advise me to do? Continue with water only on a taped blade until I get a satisfactory result or going back some more steps? Is it true that coticules get minor HHT results than synthetic hones because they don't produce micro serrations?

I'd say that you should probably continue to develop your technique specific to the coticule and forget about whatever your expectation might be from having worked with the spydercos. You have a full hollow blade and your coti may be fast, so consequently, you may be slightly blunting the edge unless you go to water sooner. Learn this particular hone and you'll get it. HHT? Beats me.....

 

[JonM]

I'm in a similar (worse) situation and I was about to start my own thread until I saw this one. I have several straights that I'm trying to get shave ready on my new coticule. However, I somehow managed to take a razor that was tugging a bit (but still able to cut hair) and turned it into a pretty butter knife. I also have a few vintage straights that were dull as can be. But, I can't seem to get a good edge on them. I've watched countless videos on coticule honing. I've been reading post after post here. But, I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'll start out by making a thick, muddy slurry on my 40 x 100 select coti. I'll keep the blade flat against the stone and start making firm, even circles. I'll then progressively add water drops to thin it out and continue with the circles until I end up with mostly water. In the end... junk. I can even touch the blade to bare skin and not cut anything. What was fun at first is getting to be exasperating. Help!

 

[Woodash]

If your bevel is set, why use a 'thick, muddy slurry'? Quite often, less is more - less pressure, fewer laps, lighter slurry, etc. Try just a few laps at any given treatment and test the edge - and listen to what it's telling you it needs next. Don't muscle it. GL

 

[Wid]

Go to coticule.be and watch the honing video. Sounds to me you not quite sure how to do a diluticot. I spend a lot more time on the stone. First, did you check to see if your bevel was set before diluting? After you have a good bevel you should be doing sets of half strokes between dilutions. The amount of dilutions depend on the hone and razor. I make sure to get at least HHT 1 before moving off dilutions.

Don't rush your dilutions.

 

[ladykate]

JonM - Have you honed with any other stones before? If so, were you able to get an edge with them? Coticules are harder to use and require more patience than other stones (IMHO). The result will be a milder edge but one that many like (except me). If you are just trying to get a sharp blade, then consider going to something easier to use and then practicing with the Coti in slower time. Having a bunch of dull razors and no way to get them sharp right away is probably infuriating. Ok... get ready... I'm going to say it... If you are just trying to get a couple of razors sharp, then get some lapping film. Get a couple of good shavers turned out then using the rocks on a finished blade and learning to put a nice edge on it might be less frustrating. Note that I'm not saying to abandon the Coticule (yikes... $$$ down the drain if nothing else!). Just saying it might be easier to work on a blade if you have a backup to shave with.

 

[JonM]

Yeah. The coti is my first hone. I found that I don't care for the laser sharp edges of some stones and figured that the coti would give me a nice, mild edge. A little *too* mild at the moment. I'll need to practice a bit more, I suppose.

 

[Thomas Martin]

Thanks a lot. I should add that I definitely had the bevel set properly. Dulled it on glass and did laps on slurry until I was able to shave my arm hair. It took me more than 30 strokes of course.

 

[Wid]

The bevel was ruined once dulled on glass.

 

[Thomas Martin]

Go to coticule.be and watch the honing video. Sounds to me you not quite sure how to do a diluticot. I spend a lot more time on the stone. First, did you check to see if your bevel was set before diluting? After you have a good bevel you should be doing sets of half strokes between dilutions. The amount of dilutions depend on the hone and razor. I make sure to get at least HHT 1 before moving off dilutions.

Don't rush your dilutions.

Thanks. But as I said I was not doing a dilucot but a unicot and I was simply following the protocol on coticule.be as closely as possible.

 

[Thomas Martin]

The bevel was ruined once dulled on glass.

Of course. That's what you do before you do a bevel reset (?).

 

[Wid]

Just wondering, why reset the bevel if you have a good bevel to start with?

 

[Wid]

Thanks. But as I said I was not doing a dilucot but a unicot and I was simply following the protocol on coticule.be as closely as possible.

Oh, sorry, thought you were doing diluticot.

 

[Kentos]

To the OP:

Cotis require much more skill to wring out 100% of the keeness out of them. For me personally I was never able to get to that level, and instead relied on CBN and Diamond sprays to kick the edge up a notch. If done correctly you can retain most of that nice smooth coticule edge.
I do have a newly hone blade from a master coti honer which will be used to take off a week's worth of stubble. I am curious to see how keen the edge is compared to my unpasted edges.

To the new coti user:

The more slurry you have the more chance of blunting. While a thick slurry will quickly abrade metal from the razor, it wil also be simultaneously blunting the bevel. Try a light milky slurry, and refresh it if needed. I have read that a really thick slurry can wear down a razor without ever setting the bevel. I personally start with a light misty slurry myself. eBay specials that need total bevel resets go to a Naniwa 1k first.

Good luck and YMMV massively with hone BTW

 

[Krodor]

So, trying to sum up what I think I've read in the thread so far:
dulled edge -> lapped-flat coti -> lotsa slurry built in such a way as to retain aforesaid flatness as much as possible -> hone until the entire edge heel to toe can shave skin level arm-leg hair with no effort and a close inspection of the edge shows no micro-sized (only-see-magnified) chips/nicks.

No diluting has been done up to this point in the above sequence when you did it, right?

In my experience, with anything other than lapping film, counting laps /following a recipe of counted laps never works (for me). It might be the same issue with lapping film the more it is used, but I don't know yet. From the first post, i would have said the bevel isn't set yet. Never tried a unicot so i can't comment after that.

 

[gary haywood]

I recently purchased a Belgium coticule and used it to hone my 7/8 Dorko with the unicot method (30 laps with slurry to define the edge followed by 30 laps on diluted slurry, then 30 laps with watery slurry with taped spine and 50 on water only). I was really being attentive on my strokes and am pretty sure I did good ones. Whereas I'm capable of getting good HHT result with a synthetic progression using spyderco hones (HHT 3/4) I was unable to get a comparable result with my coticule (I didn't even get a HHT 0 bevore stropping and a 3 after 60 laps on canvas and 60 on unpasted leather). I dont think that it's my technique. I'm not into honing for a long time and may yet have much to learn. But should'nt I be able to achieve at least a comparable result as to when I use my syntetics? The shaving was acceptable. Some tugging on a 3 days growth with a decent DFS after 2 passes). What would you advise me to do? Continue with water only on a taped blade until I get a satisfactory result or going back some more steps? Is it true that coticules get minor HHT results than synthetic hones because they don't produce micro serrations?

just start again. make a milky slurry and hone untill you can easily shave arm hair ? when you can do another 30 to 50 x strokes on thinner slurry. Now try adding two layers of electrical tape to the spine..Do 30 x strokes on misty misty slurry . rinse hone and do 50 x strokes on clean hone with water strop and test HHT . i somtimes found two layer worked better than one , depends on thicjness of electrical tape two will give you more clearance ..

unicot is quite easy to learn. just keep trying

gary

 

[Doc226]

My sequence on a Coticule
Bevel setting

 

[Doc226]

Pacocot

 

[shaverjoe]

Nothing to add to what has already been said other than there is certainly value in remaining patient and learning your stone. In my experience, albeit limited, each stone is a riddle. The coti Doc226 used above is my coti. I use the dilucot method and start by doing lap counts and dilution counts with every razor. I find my results to be pretty consistent based on the counts with the dilucot method, though not exactly the same. My biggest piece of advice would be to remain patient and try and learn your stone's characteristics. I have never attempted a unicot honing so I cannot speak to that particular method.

If you feel like your bevel was set, I would suspect, from reading your honing progression, you needed more time on the stone. Just my opinion.