Help me learn my coticule, and finally master it.

[redbreast]

Guys, I really really need your help.
I cant get anything decent of my coticule. I have tried +30 times on it and succeded only once with what could count as a good edge. That time i didnt pay any attention so i cant really recall on how and what i did.
The thing is, i put a bevel using either film or an dmt. Switch to the stone and work up a light slurry. And the further i seem to go in the diluting process the duller the edge goes. Sometimes it feels even less sharp than after initial bevel process.
I guess i have tried all i can figure off, when it comes to dilute, not to dilute, finish on oil, on water, on running water. I have tried wedges, half-, full- hollows. with tape and without. I have tried to hand hold it, and place it on a table, to do things fast, and to slow down. Tried 100+ laps before dilute and 30+ before.
All that is common is that the further i go somewhere it just gets really bad. I cant figure it out.

stone is 100*40 mm and i have lapped it. It have been tagged to be a la grise in the coticule love thread.
I have a magnifier, just dont really no what to look for.

So please help a frustrated brother out here. Help me master my stone.

 

[gary haywood]

some guys say the la grise is a lovely coticule and they work, the ones I tried frustrated the hell out of me , and I have to be onest I tried every thing in the book and all though I got a shavable edge it was never to the standard it should of been...I just never got on with the three la grise I tried , thee were the newly mined la grise. hope fully some one chime in who no's how they work. I acatuly sent mine to a couple of mebers to have ago on mine one in the usa and one uk.. the chap in usa never got an edge the other chap in uk sent the razor back honed up my la grise , it pulled like hell.. I could get the razor to shave stubble but never smooth as butter

 

[Kentos]

How are you deciding when the bevel is set and ready to move to the coti?

A diluticot is basically where you set the bevel on a milky slurry, then after the bevel is set I like to clean off the old slurry completely and start on a new milky slurry. Then every maybe 2 sets of half strokes I add a drop or 2 of water then do 2 more sets, the add 2 more drops, etc etc.
You have to remember that because the garnets don't break down at all, if you don't dilute the edge will forever be banging into the garnets in the slurry forever dulling your edge. Diluting slowly lessens the garnets so the edge bangs less and less into garnets, and is honed more and more by the garnets embedded in the stone itself.
As the dilution progresses you will be gradually lessening the pressure, and maybe moving away from half strokes into alternating laps. Towards the end almost all the slurry will be gone and you will be on clear water. Then completely clean off the stone and razor, and do light laps on water. And voila, finito.

It really isn't too hard, it's just figuring out how heavy a slurry you need to start, and how many dilutions you need. If your bevel is already set, and you seem to be dulling the edge on slurry, I would try using a misty slurry at first to see if that still dulls. My guess is your stone releases a lot of garnets relative to the density of the slurry itself.

 

[SliceOfLife]

First off, 100x40mm is a tiny, tiny stone for doing low grit work on. Most people won't even use that small of a stone as a finisher. It can definitely do what you need, but it's going to be very very hard to learn to hone on a stone that size. Given that, I'd say it's 99% chance you're just not doing enough work low grit and you're diluting too fast. You say you do 100 laps... but realize, if your razor + margin of error x2 (spine from edge of stone and edge from edge of stone) is 1" (and I'd say that's a pretty conservative estimate), your laps are <3.5". Compare that to a guy on what I'd say is a more typical size (possibly the most common vintage size) of 175x50mm doing around 7" laps.

Beyond that it's really hard to help you out. You say that you've tried everything and ask us to tell you what you're doing wrong. That's kind of defeating the purpose of asking for advice. Kind of like saying: "There's nothing wrong with my car. Why won't it start?" to a mechanic who doesn't get to work on your car himself.

Best advice I can give you is to film yourself honing so we can take a look at it. And in the meantime watch films of others honing on coticules and see what if anything you're doing differently than them.


I'll say this, coming off a beveling stone, it's not really possible to DULL a blade on a coticule unless you are just doing something mechanically wrong. Coticules take a good long time to bevel on because they can't really cut at the same coarseness as what most people use to bevel with, though they can get reasonably close to it. So if you're getting the impression that your work on the coticule is dulling the blade that came off your beveling stone, then my best guess is that you're not setting the bevel properly or fully, and are testing different area's on the blade before and after using the coticule.

For people learning dilucot, I'm generally of the opinion that (assuming your initial slurry is sufficiently thick) every single problem encountered can be solved by diluting in smaller stages and/or honing more between dilutions. That's pretty much the ONLY thing that can go wrong with dilucot as far as I'm concerned.

Use a spray bottle set to mist to dilute more finitely. And hone more to hone more. If 100 laps isn't working, try 200. Eventually you'll get there.


First, make sure that your bevel is set well and for the entire length of the blade. Second, make sure that you're starting with sufficiently thick slurry. Third, spend more time at all stages of honing on dilucot. If this means it takes you 3 hours to hone your razor, so be it. You'll get a better feel for it and stop wasting time and steel as you gain experience, but first you need to eliminate the concern you have that the coticule isn't doing what it is supposed to, and you do that by taking the possibility of user error out of the equation by just honing way, way, way more than you need to.

 

[redbreast]

How are you deciding when the bevel is set and ready to move to the coti?

A diluticot is basically where you set the bevel on a milky slurry, then after the bevel is set I like to clean off the old slurry completely and start on a new milky slurry. Then every maybe 2 sets of half strokes I add a drop or 2 of water then do 2 more sets, the add 2 more drops, etc etc.
You have to remember that because the garnets don't break down at all, if you don't dilute the edge will forever be banging into the garnets in the slurry forever dulling your edge. Diluting slowly lessens the garnets so the edge bangs less and less into garnets, and is honed more and more by the garnets embedded in the stone itself.
As the dilution progresses you will be gradually lessening the pressure, and maybe moving away from half strokes into alternating laps. Towards the end almost all the slurry will be gone and you will be on clear water. Then completely clean off the stone and razor, and do light laps on water. And voila, finito.

It really isn't too hard, it's just figuring out how heavy a slurry you need to start, and how many dilutions you need. If your bevel is already set, and you seem to be dulling the edge on slurry, I would try using a misty slurry at first to see if that still dulls. My guess is your stone releases a lot of garnets relative to the density of the slurry itself.

i may not be finished at the bevel stage, but if it is somewhere like shaving armhair relatively easy then I move on.
But It seem to work as long there is some slurry, it is the longer I get in the process, the less slurry I have the more its dulls.

 

[SliceOfLife]

So, if I understand you correctly, you are sharpening, testing edge, diluting, sharpening, testing edge to find it's duller than before, diluting... etc?

You shouldn't be diluting if the edge isn't improving. You should be starting over, because you've made a mistake somewhere. If the blade really cuts arm hair easily the full length of the blade before going to the coticule, than we really need to see a video of you honing, since the only thing I can think of is you're doing something to degrade the edge in your honing process, and at a low grit (thick slurry), you're keeping up with the damage, but at thinner slurrys the damage overwhelms your honing. Are you maybe running off the edge of the hone?

 

[Doc226]

I found most of my issues with my coticules were diluting too fast

Make sure your bevel is set, not kind of set, not mostly set it needs to be 100% set, if there is any doubt don't move on.

Start with a slurry and dilute slowly, you are better off going slower than faster. If you dilute slowly even if your slurry is too thick it should catch up.

 

[redbreast]

So now I have tried to after the bevel is set, putting it on misty slurry and that gave it bigger scratch marks then the dmt extra fine I used for the bevel, and I noticed that during honing the stone drys out partially.
I guess that kind of ruins things.
So I tried after a new bevel I set, just to do 300+ laps under running water and that gave me close to hht2.

 

[gary haywood]

that's about what I was getting sounds like your la grise is same as the ones I tried.. mine dryed and seemed to obsurb water or slurry quiker than other coticules I use...I also noticed scatch marks on bevel with mine in water stages . I also did notice the la grise with desent amount of slurry didn't have a real slurry dulling effect like other slurry's on some coticules, which baffled me why it was so hard to reach keenness? I semed to loose the edge on water sometimes for some reason the la grise I had seemed to not do a lot on water , so maybe very slow on water .....have you tried the circle method/ I think that's ideal for your 4x2.... if it was me , I would work the razor on medium slurry with circles up and down strop linen leather and see how shaves of slurry/ then work the razor with loads of circles on water strop and test of water ...see what difference it make . that way you will no how sharp you are coming of either slurry then water , I acatuly shave of a light slurry 9/10 now with my coticule and I get a real smooth shave that's one thing I never tried with la grise ...then if all fails I would do the same on a lighter slurry shave test then water again using only circles . you can then start to piece together what your slurry is doing and what differences you are getting and how much water finishing is upping the edge or not......I could get a ht 3 plus after stropping and a desent shave but not as nice as my other coticule for that reason I didn't use it.. i'd like to have another go on another maybe I may grab a 4x2 my self from ardanees

 

[redbreast]

that's about what I was getting sounds like your la grise is same as the ones I tried.. mine dryed and seemed to obsurb water or slurry quiker than other coticules I use...I also noticed scatch marks on bevel with mine in water stages . I also did notice the la grise with desent amount of slurry didn't have a real slurry dulling effect like other slurry's on some coticules, which baffled me why it was so hard to reach keenness? I semed to loose the edge on water sometimes for some reason the la grise I had seemed to not do a lot on water , so maybe very slow on water .....have you tried the circle method/ I think that's ideal for your 4x2.... if it was me , I would work the razor on medium slurry with circles up and down strop linen leather and see how shaves of slurry/ then work the razor with loads of circles on water strop and test of water ...see what difference it make . that way you will no how sharp you are coming of either slurry then water , I acatuly shave of a light slurry 9/10 now with my coticule and I get a real smooth shave that's one thing I never tried with la grise ...then if all fails I would do the same on a lighter slurry shave test then water again using only circles . you can then start to piece together what your slurry is doing and what differences you are getting and how much water finishing is upping the edge or not......I could get a ht 3 plus after stropping and a desent shave but not as nice as my other coticule for that reason I didn't use it.. i'd like to have another go on another maybe I may grab a 4x2 my self from ardanees

thanks Gary, ill try that one next. If you want I can send you my stone so you can try.

i went for another's shoot and after bevel was set I just did 2 strokes on slurry stone, and heavy diluting every 15-20 strokes, and then some light laps on just water and that gave the best results so far. Off to shave from it right now.

 

[jpcwon]

Another thing you may want to pay attention to is how much pressure you're using. I notice that as I dilute, if I don't ease up on the pressure then I am more likely to dull the edge as I go. I always use more pressure than I think I need at the beginning, and less than I think I need at the end of dilutions. Varying pressure is important in my experience, and has a big impact on how the edge starts to develop...

 

[Kentos]

Does the stone slurry VERY easily?

 

[Gamma]

100x40mm is tough to learn on IMO.
Not impossibly so but a real challenge for sure.

Is the stone dead-on flat?
Was the bevel-set spot-on?
Is the slurry darkening during dulicot? Quickly or slowly?
Do you have a good undercut?
Is the blade warped, smiling, or weird in any way?


I would try fewer dilutions and longer sets.
A 4" stone is going to need at least double the stroke count of a 6" stone, prob 3x in practical use.
Finish under slowly running water, try going uphill against the stream. Takes some practice to get both sides that way.

During Dulicot - The first moment you lose some of the undercut, jump back a step and cut the following step in half.
Don't be afraid to re-slurry a bit - keeping the undercut is more important than any recipe of strokes/pressure.

 

[daflorc]

How much experience honing on other stones do you have - and do you consistently get shave-ready edges from your own honing on those other stones?

Or, are you brand new to honing and shaving with straight razors, and you are trying to teach yourself how to hone on a coticule?

If you are a new honer - when you get that edge as sharp as you can and you STILL can't get it "shaving sharp," do 3-5 passes on a strop with .5 micron diamond spray on it, or 3x that with CroX on a strop and call it a day.

Oh - sometimes after honing at the 8k level like a naniwa, or on a coticule, stropping will take a tugging-edge and turn it into a smooth shaving edge. 50 to 100 passes on leather has that capability.

 

[redbreast]

100x40mm is tough to learn on IMO.
Not impossibly so but a real challenge for sure.

Is the stone dead-on flat?
Was the bevel-set spot-on?
Is the slurry darkening during dulicot? Quickly or slowly?
Do you have a good undercut?
Is the blade warped, smiling, or weird in any way?


I would try fewer dilutions and longer sets.
A 4" stone is going to need at least double the stroke count of a 6" stone, prob 3x in practical use.
Finish under slowly running water, try going uphill against the stream. Takes some practice to get both sides that way.

During Dulicot - The first moment you lose some of the undercut, jump back a step and cut the following step in half.
Don't be afraid to re-slurry a bit - keeping the undercut is more important than any recipe of strokes/pressure.

at first it was not freshly lapped but I did it during the day. Blade was to my knowledge straight. A edv neistrom hollow. But I get same results with different kind of blades.
bevel was set, as to perfect I could. I had good undercut after dmt and at the beginning on the coti, but it became less and less. Slurry did darken but also less the longer I kept at it.

 

[redbreast]

Does the stone slurry VERY easily?

I'm to much of a beginner to know. My first stone stone as well so nothing to compare to.

 

[redbreast]

How much experience honing on other stones do you have - and do you consistently get shave-ready edges from your own honing on those other stones?

Or, are you brand new to honing and shaving with straight razors, and you are trying to teach yourself how to hone on a coticule?

If you are a new honer - when you get that edge as sharp as you can and you STILL can't get it "shaving sharp," do 3-5 passes on a strop with .5 micron diamond spray on it, or 3x that with CroX on a strop and call it a day.

Oh - sometimes after honing at the 8k level like a naniwa, or on a coticule, stropping will take a tugging-edge and turn it into a smooth shaving edge. 50 to 100 passes on leather has that capability.

I have hade some very little, experience on honing on film. Say about 10 razors before I bought the coti. But film gives a good edge close to always. I have to strop very much when before taking a knife from honing to the face.

 

[Gamma]

at first it was not freshly lapped but I did it during the day. Blade was to my knowledge straight. A edv neistrom hollow. But I get same results with different kind of blades.
bevel was set, as to perfect I could. I had good undercut after dmt and at the beginning on the coti, but it became less and less. Slurry did darken but also less the longer I kept at it.

If you're losing undercut then you're losing edge.
In that case - I might try shorter sets, and fewer sets.
Your stone may be autoslurrying causing the edge to be retarded.
Could also be caused by too much pressure.
I've had a bunch of La Grise stones - some were pretty tricky to figure out.

 

[daflorc]

I have hade some very little, experience on honing on film. Say about 10 razors before I bought the coti. But film gives a good edge close to always. I have to strop very much when before taking a knife from honing to the face.

Since this is the case, here's some tips:

1. If, after you think you set the bevel, it does not cut wet arm hair relatively smoothly across the entire edge, then your bevel needs more work.

2. If you tape your spine, replace the tape with new tape before your water-only finishing strokes.

3. After you are done diluting your slurry, rinse the stone and the razor off under running water and do water only strokes at the end.

4. You are using too much pressure for your final strokes. Zero pressure, blade only pressure, etc. is the final word for your last 50 strokes or so.

5. Some coticules are good finishers, some aren't. I've heard hundreds of coticule users say that. I've only owned 2 - one slow and harder to get a good edge, one fast and easy to get a good edge. That's about opposite of what I've heard goes on for many people. Before you assume yours isn't a good finisher, assume that your lack of honing experience is to blame. Also - at the very end, if after stropping it still won't shave smoothly, add one more piece of tape to the spine (2 pieces total, if you honed this whole time with one) and do 10-15 final no pressure strokes. Then strop again, see if that did the trick.

 

[Fast Eddie]

www.coticule.be has some sure fire honing methods and as stated above, a proper honing begins with a 100% complete bevel set. Be prepared to own more than one coticule in your life. It's the only way you will know for sure if you have a good one. I have 5 coticules and only two are special enough to suit me. Jnats are also stones that you need to try more than one. I have four and only two of them light my honing fire........................good luck in your quest for a great stone. Eddie