Well, the first time I tried the unicot method it kind of worked. Kind of, in that I got a shave out of it, but it was pretty uncomfortable. I did 20 laps with just water to try and work out the kinks, but this made the edge much worse. I decided that since it kind of succeeded my first try, that I should try the unicot method again. I need the practice anyway, right? Well, long story short, I've tried the unicot method in full 5 times, and the dilucot method 3 times with this same razor, and still can't get a shaving edge out of it! I'm really frustrated at this point. Also, I had a shave ready razor that just needed touching up, so I figured I'd do about 15 laps on the coticule with just water as I hear it's a great finisher. The edge on that one is now terrible! Do I just have a horrible awful coti, or what? My x-stroke is fine, as I get decent results from my Norton kit and my Chinese 12k. I would say my x-stroke is now pretty good actually considering I've polished on the C12k a bunch of times, and each session was at least 100 strokes on that narrow stone. What's the secret? Why is everyone else able to get such amazing results out of this stone and I can't get anything? I also just tried the Dilucot method with another razor, and that one could barely shave arm hair when I was done with it!
Having a very very frustrating time learning the Coticule
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If you get good results with a China and not a Coticule, my immediate guess would be that you are using pressure. Coticules are both much faster than China stones and become a great deal more aggressive if used with pressure. I actually SUPPORT my razor on my last passes on my finishers. Meaning the pressure against the hone is less than that from gravity acting on the razor. You don't have to go that far, but you shouldn't be using any more pressure than the weight of the razor for sure.
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- #3
I don't really use pressure except slight pressure at the very beginning of the dilucot method, but only as described on coticule.be. I don't use any pressure at all for the last half of it in the finishing stages, and I just let the weight of the razor rest it on the stone when I was using it as a finisher- same with my Chinese.
Hmm, that is odd. Do you have a Digital camera with video recording? Maybe post a video of how you use the coticule (say repeat what you did with the shave ready, IE the 15 passes on water)? I have to go to bed, but if you do, I'll watch it tomorrow evening and post my thoughts, and I'm sure other members will be more able to comment on where the problem may lie.
Does your coti need lapping?
Pressure, like Ian said, yes. Pay attention to that. Especially if you've got a fast cutter, when you get to water only use no pressure. I can only say this because I just went through it all this past week.
Perhaps don't start over with the full unicot method. Instead, start with light slurry and progress from there. Or, just start with water.
You say you get a pretty good edge out of the Norton kit. Does that mean it could be better?
And you said you got a shave out of the coti, but it was uncomfortable.
With that of what you said, I would guess you're missing it in the middle somewhere perhaps. Not spending enough time on a certain part of the progression in your honing. If we are talking about the Nortons perhaps you weren't quite done on the 4K before you went to the 8K. Same difference with the coti. You weren't done with one part before you moved on. This could be a possibility too.
How are you testing along the way? TPT? Shaving arm hair? If so, what are you feeling?
Pressure, like Ian said, yes. Pay attention to that. Especially if you've got a fast cutter, when you get to water only use no pressure. I can only say this because I just went through it all this past week.
Perhaps don't start over with the full unicot method. Instead, start with light slurry and progress from there. Or, just start with water.
You say you get a pretty good edge out of the Norton kit. Does that mean it could be better?
And you said you got a shave out of the coti, but it was uncomfortable.
With that of what you said, I would guess you're missing it in the middle somewhere perhaps. Not spending enough time on a certain part of the progression in your honing. If we are talking about the Nortons perhaps you weren't quite done on the 4K before you went to the 8K. Same difference with the coti. You weren't done with one part before you moved on. This could be a possibility too.
How are you testing along the way? TPT? Shaving arm hair? If so, what are you feeling?
Using slight pressure on the coticule during the early phases (ie not finishing) may improve your results....
You might have success trying the new dilucot method, then adding a layer of tape then execute the unicot method... Should help get you over the hump (assuming you have a good consistent stroke)
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkxyaJLI58k&playnext_from=TL&videos=4MroskSthiY[/YOUTUBE]
You might have success trying the new dilucot method, then adding a layer of tape then execute the unicot method... Should help get you over the hump (assuming you have a good consistent stroke)
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkxyaJLI58k&playnext_from=TL&videos=4MroskSthiY[/YOUTUBE]
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- #7
Unfortunately Ian I don't have a video camera, and even if I did I don't think I could tape it and hone at the same time, heh. I'm hoping that maybe that was a fluke, and I'll try touching up another razor I have lying around.
Well I guess I don't know why I said pretty good. I haven't done a lot of bevel setting before, so I think my inexperience with this part is what's hurting me here. I can get an excellent edge out of my 4k/8k then C12k, and my touchup process (depending on the damage) is usually about 5 laps on 8k then 120 on the C12k which provides a very sharp and smooth blade.
I have a feeling my coti is actually a slow slow cutter, if anything. I might have let the edge slip over the length of the stone once or twice now that I think about it when I touched up the razor. When I touch up my next razor, I'll know if I really screwed something up that time and just for some reason didn't notice. That really has never affected my edge when I've done it with the 12k, though. The reason I think my coti is a slow cutter is that after watching Bart's video of the dilucot method, he almost instantly has black slurry on his stone. With mine it took a little while for this to appear. The razor might be stainless, and it seems to be very hard steel regardless, so maybe slow cutter + stainless = do a lot more laps than normal? It's a NOS C.V. Heljestrand Royal Kindal, if anyone is familiar with honing this specific model.
I'm mainly using TPT and shaving arm hair sparingly throughout, but I guess I am a bit clueless as to when to move on in diluting the slurry as I don't have different stones to move to in a progression like normal. I'm a bit clueless as to what I'm looking for when further diluting the slurry. Any tips?
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- #8
Almost forgot to mention, that yes in fact my coticule is completely lapped and chamfered.
Paul that's the video I used as an example. I think I may have found a big mistake that I made, though! I just noticed on Bart's site that he says to put slight pressure on the center of the blade with your index finger only with the normal honing stroke, and that when you're moving the blade spine leading to use no pressure.
Paul that's the video I used as an example. I think I may have found a big mistake that I made, though! I just noticed on Bart's site that he says to put slight pressure on the center of the blade with your index finger only with the normal honing stroke, and that when you're moving the blade spine leading to use no pressure.
The blade is pulled back to the starting position by reversing the push movement. It stays in constant contact with the hone during the entire stroke, the "push" part of the movement is performed with slightly more pressure than the "pull" part. To control this pressure, one finger is placed on the blade and it exerts some pressure.
I have been using back and forth strokes with enough pressure to keep the razor on my coticules and then i have finished with 50 light strokes.It works very well and the razors respond well with slight pressure on the cotiocule. Lynn does a similar thing with circles on his naniwas. Sounds to me like your bevel is not set from begining. I have had many coticules and use them regular i never had a horrible one .When i first stated out i could hardly shave face hair or even arm hair.
One piece of advice. When your setting bevel . Do half strokes or normal which ever your comfy with. make sure the whole edge is contacting the hone, use bl;ack marker along the edge to make sure.
If you hone on a dense slurry you will never be able to shave arm hair . You need to set bevel on a milky slurry untill you can shave arm hair pritty ok. Don't loose track of your slurry make sure you keep it milky by ading a drop of water as often as you need.
once you can shave arm hair then start to dilute with drops of water. In the process if you let your slurry thicken or dry a little you will loose keeness. For get about the counting of laps just keep that slurry diluted evry 5 ,10 or 15 laps untill the hon e feels like its lost it power to cut. Then quikm rinse and 50 laps . then clean and rub hone with plenty of water, let hone rest for two minutes then do another 50. check see if you can pop a thick hair strop linen/leather. the key thing is keep that slurry lubed with water don't let it fall back or youir edge will. Then what happens is you don't regain the sharpness. If at the end you still fail. Add one layer of tape and do 20 laps on a very misty slurry and then 50 on water very light laps at this stage . The other thing you could use a sharpening paste . I used TI rasoir on canvas and it works. eventualy you will find you won't need it .
One piece of advice. When your setting bevel . Do half strokes or normal which ever your comfy with. make sure the whole edge is contacting the hone, use bl;ack marker along the edge to make sure.
If you hone on a dense slurry you will never be able to shave arm hair . You need to set bevel on a milky slurry untill you can shave arm hair pritty ok. Don't loose track of your slurry make sure you keep it milky by ading a drop of water as often as you need.
once you can shave arm hair then start to dilute with drops of water. In the process if you let your slurry thicken or dry a little you will loose keeness. For get about the counting of laps just keep that slurry diluted evry 5 ,10 or 15 laps untill the hon e feels like its lost it power to cut. Then quikm rinse and 50 laps . then clean and rub hone with plenty of water, let hone rest for two minutes then do another 50. check see if you can pop a thick hair strop linen/leather. the key thing is keep that slurry lubed with water don't let it fall back or youir edge will. Then what happens is you don't regain the sharpness. If at the end you still fail. Add one layer of tape and do 20 laps on a very misty slurry and then 50 on water very light laps at this stage . The other thing you could use a sharpening paste . I used TI rasoir on canvas and it works. eventualy you will find you won't need it .
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- #10
Bingo! I think this might have been my problem. My slurry was probably too thick, and it also kept drying out on me. So you start the diluting once it shaves arm hair pretty well? I can get to that point, but I had already started the dilution, so maybe this affected my edge as well. This has me excited to try again tomorrow.
I was worried about my slurry getting too thin too early, so I guess that explains why it got thick and dried out too much, causing the edge to suffer.
I too let my slurry dry out too much and gets thick.
Is there a resource that shows photos of different types of slurry?
Say, start with thick and it should look like this. After so long your slurry should look like that...etc. That may prove helpful. I know it would be to me.
Is there a resource that shows photos of different types of slurry?
Say, start with thick and it should look like this. After so long your slurry should look like that...etc. That may prove helpful. I know it would be to me.
The video Paul posted shows it pretty well from what slurry should look like to set bevels and how it dilutes to a finer, watered down slurry as you progress into just water as your final polish.
Pretty much the first slurry you use is milky white and as you remove steel it turns brown to black and begins to dilute if you use the dilucote method. Coticule.de has an abundance of info and great help too.
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- #13
Tried it again, and while it didn't pass the TPT with flying colors, it was popping arm hairs off like crazy just like my shave ready razors, and there was quite a bit of draw on the Tony Miller red latigo, so we'll see how she does in the morning. This time felt much better, though, so hopefully the results speak for themselves with tomorrow's shave.
If this one doesn't work that well, add a layer of tape and do the unicot method. After 8 attempts, it's certainly not time to get frustrated. Mastering a coticule is not something that comes overnight. Stick with it. In the end, it'll be worth it, if you stick it out.
I think mastering the coticule is a life-time achivement.
Like all great skills you will have to put the time & effort in.
I've honed maybe 50 razors from dull to shave-ready on coticule now & still I'm not getting a perfect edge every time. But they do come more regularly
This thread helped me quite a bit, thanks thanks .
And of course, thanks everybody.
. And of course, thanks everybody.
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- #17
I think mastering the coticule is a life-time achivement.
Like all great skills you will have to put the time & effort in.
I've honed maybe 50 razors from dull to shave-ready on coticule now & still I'm not getting a perfect edge every time. But they do come more regularly
So my experiences are not unique? I'm hoping at least someone out there is having similar troubles.
Thanks Paul, and you're right that it's too soon to get frustrated! I think I got frustrated so early seeing as how I was getting much better results much faster with other stones.
This thread helped me quite a bit, thanks thanks
And of course, thanks everybody.
I'm glad it's helping someone else. It seems that there should be more dialog about coticule troubleshooting.
I'm going to attempt a shave with the razor, although I'm not confident it's ready... We'll see. I'll strop my 8/8 Revisor just in case it needs to finish the job.
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- #18
I just shaved with it, and I am happy to report I got a DFS after one pass!
I would not quite call it shave ready, as there is a little redness and irritation, so it could be smoother and slightly sharper, but overall it was a success. One weeper on my chin.
Now, I know it shaves, it's pretty sharp, and pretty smooth, but I want it to really be up to my normal shaving edges. How do I gain a little more sharpness, without sacrificing comfort, and increase smoothness all on the coticule?
I would not quite call it shave ready, as there is a little redness and irritation, so it could be smoother and slightly sharper, but overall it was a success. One weeper on my chin.
Now, I know it shaves, it's pretty sharp, and pretty smooth, but I want it to really be up to my normal shaving edges. How do I gain a little more sharpness, without sacrificing comfort, and increase smoothness all on the coticule?
One thing in this thread that I have seen which I don't see talked about too often is the slurry drying out especially when you are learning.
I experienced this same thing learning on my coticule.
I experienced this same thing learning on my coticule.
I just shaved with it, and I am happy to report I got a DFS after one pass!
I would not quite call it shave ready, as there is a little redness and irritation, so it could be smoother and slightly sharper, but overall it was a success. One weeper on my chin.
Now, I know it shaves, it's pretty sharp, and pretty smooth, but I want it to really be up to my normal shaving edges. How do I gain a little more sharpness, without sacrificing comfort, and increase smoothness all on the coticule?
That's exactly what I need to find out.....
