Had another go at honing last night.

[Mr_Spiffy]

I took out two razors that really needed sharpening, all the way from setting a bevel through to a finished edge.

My first was an Anchor "Manganese Steel" blade, measuring around 4/8. The edge was fairly straight, but had a small spot that could benefit from breadknifing. So, after that, I went to my Naniwa 1k and had at it. The toe smiles up just a bit near the end, so I had to do a slight rolling stroke at the toe to get it sharp. I feel it went quite well. It shaves arm hair with ease, and I can't wait to give it shot at a shave! This one wasn't too difficult at all. It just needed a little attention.

My second razor was the one pictured here:

This one gave me more grief. It has a little smile to it, so rolling strokes it is. But it definitely needed a bit of a breadknife to straighten the edge out. There was a small spot with a frown in it that needed to be removed. But it still smiles a bit. You can definitely tell that the toe area needed more attention. The heel sharpened quickly on the 1k, but the toe area needed to have more metal removed to get the edge keen. In fact, I still don't have it where I want it. The heel area shaves arm hair, but the toe area does not. Man, these smiling razors are killing me! They're a LOT of work to sharpen, especially for a n00b, like me. I've put pressure in the toe area to get it to hone to a sharp bevel, but it just doesn't want to get there. I've noticed that, only on one side of the blade, the bevel is wider at that area than on the opposite side. The other side has a nice even bevel all the way across. I wonder if the grind is just a little wider at that point or something.

I've tried rolling strokes, doing strokes with finger pressure there, and doing circle motions to concentrate on that area. It's just being stubborn! I'll have at it again sometime in the next couple days and provide an update. Unfortunately, I don't have any pics showing the new bevel or a sharpie test. I can definitely take a couple pics, if someone feels it would be helpful.

 

[gvp]

I took out two razors that really needed sharpening, all the way from setting a bevel through to a finished edge.

My first was an Anchor "Manganese Steel" blade, measuring around 4/8. The edge was fairly straight, but had a small spot that could benefit from breadknifing. So, after that, I went to my Naniwa 1k and had at it. The toe smiles up just a bit near the end, so I had to do a slight rolling stroke at the toe to get it sharp. I feel it went quite well. It shaves arm hair with ease, and I can't wait to give it shot at a shave! This one wasn't too difficult at all. It just needed a little attention.

My second razor was the one pictured here:

This one gave me more grief. It has a little smile to it, so rolling strokes it is. But it definitely needed a bit of a breadknife to straighten the edge out. There was a small spot with a frown in it that needed to be removed. But it still smiles a bit. You can definitely tell that the toe area needed more attention. The heel sharpened quickly on the 1k, but the toe area needed to have more metal removed to get the edge keen. In fact, I still don't have it where I want it. The heel area shaves arm hair, but the toe area does not. Man, these smiling razors are killing me! They're a LOT of work to sharpen, especially for a n00b, like me. I've put pressure in the toe area to get it to hone to a sharp bevel, but it just doesn't want to get there. I've noticed that, only on one side of the blade, the bevel is wider at that area than on the opposite side. The other side has a nice even bevel all the way across. I wonder if the grind is just a little wider at that point or something.

I've tried rolling strokes, doing strokes with finger pressure there, and doing circle motions to concentrate on that area. It's just being stubborn! I'll have at it again sometime in the next couple days and provide an update. Unfortunately, I don't have any pics showing the new bevel or a sharpie test. I can definitely take a couple pics, if someone feels it would be helpful.

Hey Spiffy,

If you haven't already, check out Alex' http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/314697-The-Ax-Method-of-honing-razors. I've used it from bevel setting all the way up to my finish on jnat. I usually do x strokes or rolling x after that, but it sure is a quick way to get through your progressions and Alex' videos are excellent. One tip I have is to rest the razor at the beginning of the stroke and then set your hand grip. You can easily find a comfortable grip that will allow you to keep your form through the stroke. Once your muscle memory kicks in, you can switch back and forth between sides rather quickly. I hope this helps, I know it helped me. Good luck!

Gary

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Thanks, Gary. I have seen that video previously, but have not been using his technique. I'll see if I can give his procedure a shot. It would be nice to finally shave with this razor, as my very first re-scale.

 

[paco664]

breadknifing that was not necessary.... *(imho it was a waste of good blade)...

just a very slight rolling x stroke and normal progression and its good to go....

i personally love smiling razors....

 

[global_dev]

breadknifing that was not necessary.... *(imho it was a waste of good blade)...

just a very slight rolling x stroke and normal progression and its good to go....

i personally love smiling razors....

i agree, but if there truly wasn't a 100% smile and there was a big enough frown area, maybe next post up a pic and ask for thoughts.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

So, I tried some more honing this morning, and I did find some improvement in sharpness along the edge. However, there's still one spot that eludes me. It's just short of the toe. The toe shaves hair, and the middle and heel area shave hair. But there's maybe a 1/2" to 1" section just off of the very tip of the blade that won't shave well.

If I lay the blade flat on the hone, I noticed that there's a slight curve to the blade. It rocks a bit on one side, and it's slightly cupped on the other. Any advice or thoughts on why that area won't sharpen? The area in question is the area that has a thinner bevel on one side than the other. I'll post a pic shortly.

EDIT: I misspoke about the breadknifing. I mixed up the two razors and which one needed it. The first "Manganese Steel" razor was the one needing the breadknifing. This Oxford razor did not. It did have a slight smile to it, but that's fine with me. No frowning areas whatsoever.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Here's the side of the blade with the uneven bevel. Notice that the spine shows even wear. This is on the side of the blade that is convex and rocks, not the cupped or concave side. As you can see, the uneven bevel is exactly where I'm having trouble getting the edge to shave. If this funky spot didn't exist, the bevel would continue nicely all the way along the edge. I'm stuck as to what to do.

 

[AjaxLepinski]

Just subscribed to this thread. I have a funky factory bevel on a Fromm and a smiling W&B that I'll be starting on over the next few days. I'm looking forward to hearing some sage advice in this thread.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Just subscribed to this thread. I have a funky factory bevel on a Fromm and a smiling W&B that I'll be starting on over the next few days. I'm looking forward to hearing some sage advice in this thread.

Glad to have you aboard!

 

[sychodelix]

I'm wondering if it might be warped a little and that could be causing it. Can't see honing technique causing that uneveness. It just isn't making even contact.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

I'm wondering if it might be warped a little and that could be causing it. Can't see honing technique causing that uneveness. It just isn't making even contact.

I wouldn't be surprised. Perhaps it's honing fine on the convex side, but not really hitting the hone well on the concave side..?

 

[BakerAndBadger]

Try a narrower stone? Have you tried black marker on the edge to see what's hitting ?

 

[smalltank]

if a razor has a frown on the blade then breadknifing is handy to use...blade looks fine to me...maybe your not making the blade make contact..need to make the razor go where its sapposed to go..;-)...the razor I rehoned recently made me do like 3 different honing methods..japanese style..X strokes and up n down strokes...little more than hour to get 100% ready from the get go..though the edge was slightly there to begin with..if it was a total butter knife of an edge would take 2-3 hours..also depends on steel type as well..

 

[jpcwon]

Don't know how much this will help, but I have an old Boker that was doing the same thing to me; had one spot where the bevel just wouldn't fall into line like the rest of the blade (it was near the toe as well). For the longest time I thought the blade was warped, but as a Noob I quickly found ot that it was my technique!

What I ended up doing was what I refer to as "reverse rolling X-Strokes", basically leading with the toe of the blade rather than the heel. I find that for some reason, it seems to helo the toe of the blade fall into line more effectively. Maybe give that a try??

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Try a narrower stone? Have you tried black marker on the edge to see what's hitting ?

Unfortunately, I don't have any other stones. All I have is my Naniwa 1k, which I also use as a flat honing surface with film. I have tried the sharpie test, and it looks like I'm making decent contact along the edge, if I use a bit of a rolling stroke. That's part of the reason I'm confused... One thing I haven't done, yet, is bust out my jeweler's loupe to check my edge in that area. Maybe the two sides of bevel just haven't quite met in that area, yet. The edge was very dull when I first got the razor, and the edge was clearly visible looking directly at it.

if a razor has a frown on the blade then breadknifing is handy to use...blade looks fine to me...maybe your not making the blade make contact..need to make the razor go where its sapposed to go..;-)...the razor I rehoned recently made me do like 3 different honing methods..japanese style..X strokes and up n down strokes...little more than hour to get 100% ready from the get go..though the edge was slightly there to begin with..if it was a total butter knife of an edge would take 2-3 hours..also depends on steel type as well..

Thanks for these ideas. I may try different techniques to see if they help. I've already spent a few hours on this thing. It's driving me nuts!

Don't know how much this will help, but I have an old Boker that was doing the same thing to me; had one spot where the bevel just wouldn't fall into line like the rest of the blade (it was near the toe as well). For the longest time I thought the blade was warped, but as a Noob I quickly found ot that it was my technique!

What I ended up doing was what I refer to as "reverse rolling X-Strokes", basically leading with the toe of the blade rather than the heel. I find that for some reason, it seems to help the toe of the blade fall into line more effectively. Maybe give that a try??

Thanks for this idea! I'll have to see if it helps. Sometimes going the opposite direction can cause you to change how you apply pressure to the blade. Hopefully it'll help get this edge nice and sharp!

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

I also tried shaving today with my Anchor "Manganese Steel" razor that I mentioned earlier. It definitely shaves, but it's not very smooth, and it didn't cut down near the skin. It actually bent the hair over and cut where it caught onto it. So, I had areas that had pretty heavy stubble left over. I don't know why I'm having such trouble getting these edges nice and sharp. Are real stones easier to use than film? What am I missing..? I feel like I'm following how the videos show to sharpen a blade, but it's just not getting there. Ugh! I feel like this poor sap:

 

[AjaxLepinski]

Not sure if this will help:
- I read in a thread that, if the blade had the bevel originally set with tape on the spine, and you are now honing without tape, you won't be sharpening the edge, you will be polishing the sides and missing the edge.
- When creating a new bevel, if you don't take off enough metal, the two planes won't meet leaving a U edge instead of a V.
- The thread said that a 60x magnifier will let you see what's going on. I'll try to find the thread and post the link.

Here's an awesome thread with a lot of info from the various posters but, it's not the one I mentioned above: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/314697-The-Ax-Method-of-honing-razors

 

[Wid]

What grind is this razor?

 

[Gamma]

Some thoughts.

Maybe it's me, the photo, or both - but it looks like the edge frowns a slight bit right there.
Plus - there is something at the very edge causing the light to reflect differently than it does in other places,
When I put a piece of paper up against my screen, and I use the edge of the paper like a straight edge - I seem to see a dip in the steel.
I could be wrong - it's impossible to do that accurately on a laptop screen against an angled photo with shadows, etc.
But - it seems like a possibility that might be worth checking out.
The bevel does seem to have wave along the length of it, and there is significant hone wear also. Indicators like that usually mean that some extra effort will be needed and additional grief is inevitable.

The grind could be off there, thinner in that spot or something like that. Hard to say.
The first thing I would do - is to put a loupe on it, and then check the edge against something I know to be flat to make sure there's no frown there.
Even 1/64" of clearance will create havoc - the edge has to be a continuous line and the bevels have to meet at a perfect point all along the way.

If it was my razor and the edge was a perfect continuous line - I'd work heel leading, possible extreme heel leading rolling strokes on a 1k to see if that bevel evened out.
When I have to really over-work a blade, I'll usually kill the edge a few times along the way to eliminate the burr/foil from the equation.
If the edge turns out to not be ok, and there is a frowned section - I'd probably concentrate on honing the toe down to bring it into shape.

The visual/reflection distraction at the edge that I see reminds me of what a rolled wire or foil edge looks like in a photo sometimes. You can usually feel it with a TPT, it's hard for me to describe the feeling or the sound though. Sorta like running your finger across a piece of stiff paper.

Usually, When I'm using rolling strokes, I alternate evenly between toe-2-heel and heel-2-toe strokes to keep an even X scratch pattern. It's harder to learn toe-first, but not terribly so. It will help to even things out - at least it does for me when I use that technique.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Not sure if this will help:
- I read in a thread that, if the blade had the bevel originally set with tape on the spine, and you are now honing without tape, you won't be sharpening the edge, you will be polishing the sides and missing the edge.
- When creating a new bevel, if you don't take off enough metal, the two planes won't meet leaving a U edge instead of a V.
- The thread said that a 60x magnifier will let you see what's going on. I'll try to find the thread and post the link.

Here's an awesome thread with a lot of info from the various posters but, it's not the one I mentioned above: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/314697-The-Ax-Method-of-honing-razors

Thanks. I actually have already been perusing that thread, and have tried the ax method for honing my razor. It did help, but it's not completely sharp, obviously. I'm pretty sure that I took off plenty of metal to set a new bevel. After I sanded and polished up the blade, the hone wear along the spine wasn't even visible, as it had rounded over a bit. So, those flats are from me trying to hone this blade. I'll take my loupe and see what I can notice along the edge.

What grind is this razor?

Honestly, I'm not a good judge of grind, but I'd say 1/2-hollow or so? Have a look:

Some thoughts.

Maybe it's me, the photo, or both - but it looks like the edge frowns a slight bit right there.
Plus - there is something at the very edge causing the light to reflect differently than it does in other places,
When I put a piece of paper up against my screen, and I use the edge of the paper like a straight edge - I seem to see a dip in the steel.
I could be wrong - it's impossible to do that accurately on a laptop screen against an angled photo with shadows, etc.
But - it seems like a possibility that might be worth checking out.
The bevel does seem to have wave along the length of it, and there is significant hone wear also. Indicators like that usually mean that some extra effort will be needed and additional grief is inevitable.

The grind could be off there, thinner in that spot or something like that. Hard to say.
The first thing I would do - is to put a loupe on it, and then check the edge against something I know to be flat to make sure there's no frown there.
Even 1/64" of clearance will create havoc - the edge has to be a continuous line and the bevels have to meet at a perfect point all along the way.

If it was my razor and the edge was a perfect continuous line - I'd work heel leading, possible extreme heel leading rolling strokes on a 1k to see if that bevel evened out.
When I have to really over-work a blade, I'll usually kill the edge a few times along the way to eliminate the burr/foil from the equation.
If the edge turns out to not be ok, and there is a frowned section - I'd probably concentrate on honing the toe down to bring it into shape.

The visual/reflection distraction at the edge that I see reminds me of what a rolled wire or foil edge looks like in a photo sometimes. You can usually feel it with a TPT, it's hard for me to describe the feeling or the sound though. Sorta like running your finger across a piece of stiff paper.

Usually, When I'm using rolling strokes, I alternate evenly between toe-2-heel and heel-2-toe strokes to keep an even X scratch pattern. It's harder to learn toe-first, but not terribly so. It will help to even things out - at least it does for me when I use that technique.

I have used my Naniwa 1K with the blade perpendicular to the stone to see if my blade has a frown, and it does not appear that it does. I didn't see any light coming through in that location. Also, as I mentioned earlier in this post, that hone wear is my own doing, trying to set a bevel on my 1k. I'll definitely try to go toe-to-heel and see if that helps to even things out a bit. I wonder if I should just get one of those USB microscopes... might be easier on my eyes than a loupe.

Heads-up: I'm going to try posting some photos through my loupe of the edge in the location in question, as well as a couple photos of the edge where it seems fine.