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Forgiving/unforgiving and different blades.

People talk about forgiving and unforgiving razors but that doesn’t mean that much to newbies looking to buy a first razor. Of course it’s quite self explanatory what is meant when the term is used. But what does that actually mean when looking at all these endless razors while trying to pick just one?

The first straight I bought and used was my 6/8 Thiers Issard S-C1937 and I had read that TI had very hard steel, but of course I had nothing to compare to and didn’t really know what that would mean in practice. The razor definitely felt like a good quality tool, but that’s all I could say about it.

And it took the head off a spot I have on my jaw line.

Then I got a 4/8 Ed Wusthof Extra Dreizack and it felt very light in the hand, and tbh I didn’t like the feel of it. The TI just felt better quality due to the weight. But when I shaved with the Wusthof, it changed my mind altogether. I loved shaving with it.

It also took the head off the spot I have on my jaw line.

I then got a 6/8 ERN Little Dorrit, cleaned it up and used it tonight. It felt completely different to the other 2 razors. I also really enjoyed this shave. I could hear it cutting each whisker. The blade steel is noticeably lighter/thinner than the TI. I really like this razor but it never gave me quite as close a 2 pass shave as the other 2.

This razor never took the head off of the spot on my jaw line.

Of course, the difference in shaves could totally be my technique as I am still a beginner, but I had a bit of an “aha!” Moment. I suppose my question is, is the fact the ERN never took the head off the spot a sign that it’s more forgiving? Are 6/8 solingen more forgiving than 4/8 Solingen due to the flex in the “height” of the blade and also more forgiving than 6/8 TI due to the flex on the blade because of the thickness.

So I’d be right in saying that the lack of “height” flex will be what makes wedge blades more difficult for a beginner?

And when we think about the Koraat with the belly, you’d be getting the “height” flex but lateral rigidity so getting the best of both worlds?

I know I’ve just missed your deadline for suggestions for beginner info @rbscebu but I wonder if there’s anything in these thoughts that may be worth including.
 
I am not certain that there is any such thing as an unforgiving straight razor. I do recommend 6/8" blade width to newbies as I find it easier to judge the shave angle with a 6/8" than the 5/8". Once you get beyond 7/8", the weight of the razor makes it more difficult for a new shaver to control.

I would not recommend a Japanese style Kamisori razor for a new shaver.

It can be quite intimidating for a new shaver to place a straight razor against his throat for the first time. I suggest you start by shaving your cheek with the grain on your dominant side using your dominant hand and then completing your shave with a DE razor or other alternative. Once you are comfortable doing that, try shaving other portions of your face with the grain. Complete you shave using alternative implements. Only when you can shave your entire face WTG without discomfort should you try shaving XTG or ATG. It is not necessary to do a full three-pass shave on your first outing.

Some people shave with both hands and others use their dominant hand only. I use my right hand to shave the right side of my face WTG and my left hand to shave the left side of my face. When shaving XTG and ATG, I change my grip on the razor and shave with the opposite hand. But you should do whatever feels most natural to you.

Be sure you do not attempt to shave ATG on your upper lip until you are fully confident with a straight razor. That is called the "Fool's Pass" as many have suffered serious nose damage doing this. However, @rbscebu is an experienced "fool" who still retains his nose (AFAIK), so it can be done.

I now sport a mustache as I nicked the edge of my upper lip with a straight razor and could not shave my lip again until the nick healed. By then my mustache had grown out and I liked the way I looked. I have kept it every since. I am not as proficient as @rbscebu.
 
I think that different grinds can be more or less forgiving of bad technique. Once you master the art of proper shave angle and a feather-light touch, those differences disappear. Assuming edges that are equally keen.

However I believe blade *shape* makes a big difference. A slight smile means that you don't have to worry as much about where the heel is while shaving with the toe, or vice versa, because it's naturally not making contact with the face. Or if you're shaving in the middle of the blade, the heel or toe is less likely to snag you. This is really helpful below the jaw and around the mouth.
 
I have to wonder if the reason the third razor did not take the head off the spot on your jawline was because there was no head left to remove! :laugh:

I will only use my cvh mk24 when I feel properly alert as the narrow size + uber edge are quite unforgiving, if your concerntration slips. And it is quite delicate to hold.

My most forgiving razor would be my gold dollar, but I put that down the a 19 degree edge, not the razor size.

For me it's about the edge. How sharp is it and what shape.
I've read that a coticule edge can be more forgiving than a method edge. (Mine are method)
Like Darth, I find a smile does make the razor easier to use.
 
I do find my daily driver feels "stiffer" and doesn't flex, which in turn I feel for me lends it being a little more forgiving in certain circumstances (bad prep/lather not up to snuff), but I've had unforgiving edges on that razor which makes that prior point pretty moot.

It's all about the edge.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
The term "forgiving" straight razor to me means that the SR will forgive slight mistakes in technique by not drawing blood.

With the SR's that I have shaved with, I have found that "forgiveness" has a lot to do with bevel angle (keenness?) and to a lesser extent grind. The SR still needs to be able to shave whiskers easily so a well defined edge on a more obtuse bevel, about 17.5° to 18.5°, and a ½ to full hollow, is my recommendation to someone new to SR shaving. Later, as your technique improves, you buy and try SR's with a more acute bevel angle and different grinds to find what better suites you style.
 
My take on this topic...based on my still beginner experience...
Forgiving straight razor edge are those honed on natural stones (jnats)...they are very smooth & comfortable but somehow not efficient enough for my neck area...
Unforgiving could be the pasted balsa edges...still smooth & comfortable but very sharp and sure is more efficient, usually can caused red spots or irritation.
I'm still trying to seek the in-between...SR Nirvana...
I have extra hollow to full wedges from 5/8 to 7/8 and enjoyed them all...the main thing is the edge...all about the edge...
 
My take on this topic...based on my still beginner experience...
Forgiving straight razor edge are those honed on natural stones (jnats)...they are very smooth & comfortable but somehow not efficient enough for my neck area...
Unforgiving could be the pasted balsa edges...still smooth & comfortable but very sharp and sure is more efficient, usually can caused red spots or irritation.
I'm still trying to seek the in-between...SR Nirvana...
I have extra hollow to full wedges from 5/8 to 7/8 and enjoyed them all...the main thing is the edge...all about the edge...
Everybody has their preferences, I use mineral oil with ceramics as my finisher before stropping on leather. My secret for a lovely, smooth, and scary sharp repeatable shave best paired with any slick soap.
 
Everybody has their preferences, I use mineral oil with ceramics as my finisher before stropping on leather. My secret for a lovely, smooth, and scary sharp repeatable shave best paired with any slick soap.
Interesting...mineral oil on ceramics...you mean on Shapton/Naniwa stones? There was another interesting thread discussing the use of oil on stones too.
 
Interesting...mineral oil on ceramics...you mean on Shapton/Naniwa stones? There was another interesting thread discussing the use of oil on stones too.
I made a couple of posts last week in the honing section on what works for me. Most ceramic manufactures advise no oil, but others who have been sharpening for more years than I’ve been on this planet say otherwise. My two cents, mineral oil repeat mineral oil is easy removed from stones and ceramics; other oils and paraffins not so much. Mineral oil floats the removed particles above the surface of the ceramic which allows me enough time to work the edge on the ceramic alone. It doesn’t take me but a few passes, so zero risk of clogging up the pores as some naysayers who spend way too much time making 10-20 passes would point out. From start to finish, it should only take about 10 minutes from bevel set to finishing the hone. I‘ve seen guys on YouTube playing around with their stones and pastes for 30 plus minutes on a SR blade…really no professional sharpener has this kind of time to goof around on one blade plus it causes excessive blade wear. Maybe I’ll make a video to post soon. I’ll go buy a junk chipped SR like I did last week and go through the steps from bevel setting to a full shave in 15 minutes or less.
 
My take on this topic...based on my still beginner experience...
Forgiving straight razor edge are those honed on natural stones (jnats)...they are very smooth & comfortable but somehow not efficient enough for my neck area...
Unforgiving could be the pasted balsa edges...still smooth & comfortable but very sharp and sure is more efficient, usually can caused red spots or irritation.
I'm still trying to seek the in-between...SR Nirvana...
I have extra hollow to full wedges from 5/8 to 7/8 and enjoyed them all...the main thing is the edge...all about the edge...
I have been reading a lot lately and it sounds to me like doing the last diamond paste on leather over balsa might be the solution. I have also read that some people stop at .5 or .25 instead of going further. Once they figure out which will be their final paste, they put that on leather. I also have heard anything above .5 on leather isn't a great idea because the abrasive will sit on the surface instead of in the pores and it risks over convexing the final bevel.
 
I made a couple of posts last week in the honing section on what works for me. Most ceramic manufactures advise no oil, but others who have been sharpening for more years than I’ve been on this planet say otherwise. My two cents, mineral oil repeat mineral oil is easy removed from stones and ceramics; other oils and paraffins not so much. Mineral oil floats the removed particles above the surface of the ceramic which allows me enough time to work the edge on the ceramic alone. It doesn’t take me but a few passes, so zero risk of clogging up the pores as some naysayers who spend way too much time making 10-20 passes would point out. From start to finish, it should only take about 10 minutes from bevel set to finishing the hone. I‘ve seen guys on YouTube playing around with their stones and pastes for 30 plus minutes on a SR blade…really no professional sharpener has this kind of time to goof around on one blade plus it causes excessive blade wear. Maybe I’ll make a video to post soon. I’ll go buy a junk chipped SR like I did last week and go through the steps from bevel setting to a full shave in 15 minutes or less.
Hey, thanks! Very interesting fact from you. I won't mind trying once I have the ceramics stones in hand...am planning to get the Shapton 1k and 5k. How do you clean the mineral oil off the stones after working on them? Johnson Baby oil is considered mineral oil right?
 
I have been reading a lot lately and it sounds to me like doing the last diamond paste on leather over balsa might be the solution. I have also read that some people stop at .5 or .25 instead of going further. Once they figure out which will be their final paste, they put that on leather. I also have heard anything above .5 on leather isn't a great idea because the abrasive will sit on the surface instead of in the pores and it risks over convexing the final bevel.
Hey, thanks for your comments. I really would hesitate to put the diamond paste on my leather...I'd try before on my Chinese leather/cotton strop, applying chromium oxide on the cotton and stropping the razors. I don't like it...hahahaha.

I prefer natural stones though and similar to you, I am zeroing on a small budget La Lune. I'll wait for your feedback with interest.
 
Hey, thanks! Very interesting fact from you. I won't mind trying once I have the ceramics stones in hand...am planning to get the Shapton 1k and 5k. How do you clean the mineral oil off the stones after working on them? Johnson Baby oil is considered mineral oil right?
A quick wipe with a soft cloth. For a super clean, Dawn dish soap and water. Baby oil is mineral oil with fragrance added…works great.
 
When someone says something that is difficult to understand, it's best to ask them what they mean right then/there. Waiting a while and asking someone else what that person meant might not reveal what the original commenter was referring to. All anyone can do is guess at that point. Perceptions play heavy in these arenas, what someone thinks is aggressive might not be what I or someone else thinks it is.

I find that an edge can be forgiving, or not. For the most part, the razor itself isn't really part of the equation. I could argue that certain steels might be able to take an edge that is less forgiving more easily than another type - perhaps - but that doesn't mean those razors must always have unforgiving edges. How a blade is honed comes first in the equation, what the blade is capable of is a parallel story. I do not see brand, grind, width, style, etc being indicative of anything to do with edge aggression. IF I hone a blade to an extreme edge, I can also take it back to the hones and rehone it to a more mellow edge.

Personal preference might weigh in, someone might think a wedge's heft makes the blade aggressive. But this is more about user style or perception, or even maybe user error. Qualifying blade aggression, objectively, can be done but most of the time the subject is just bantered around without qualification.

I had a full hollow that saw 200+ laps on .25µm diamond. it was the most aggressive edge I had seen, also the most frail, and the most uncomfortable. Close shave beyond description, but I bled from what seemed like every pore and the post shave feel was pure irritation. I don't like diamond paste to begin with, this was just off the rails though. I can get similarly tedious edges off stones, if I try to, so it's not simply a honing-medium concept. In other words, I don't need paste to get there. But I don't think a Coti edge would ever get all the way to that point, so there's that sort of thing to factor in. I can get pretty brisk edges off cotis though, so they're not totally out of the running...
 
When someone says something that is difficult to understand, it's best to ask them what they mean right then/there. Waiting a while and asking someone else what that person meant might not reveal what the original commenter was referring to. All anyone can do is guess at that point. Perceptions play heavy in these arenas, what someone thinks is aggressive might not be what I or someone else thinks it is.

I find that an edge can be forgiving, or not. For the most part, the razor itself isn't really part of the equation. I could argue that certain steels might be able to take an edge that is less forgiving more easily than another type - perhaps - but that doesn't mean those razors must always have unforgiving edges. How a blade is honed comes first in the equation, what the blade is capable of is a parallel story. I do not see brand, grind, width, style, etc being indicative of anything to do with edge aggression. IF I hone a blade to an extreme edge, I can also take it back to the hones and rehone it to a more mellow edge.

Personal preference might weigh in, someone might think a wedge's heft makes the blade aggressive. But this is more about user style or perception, or even maybe user error. Qualifying blade aggression, objectively, can be done but most of the time the subject is just bantered around without qualification.

I had a full hollow that saw 200+ laps on .25µm diamond. it was the most aggressive edge I had seen, also the most frail, and the most uncomfortable. Close shave beyond description, but I bled from what seemed like every pore and the post shave feel was pure irritation. I don't like diamond paste to begin with, this was just off the rails though. I can get similarly tedious edges off stones, if I try to, so it's not simply a honing-medium concept. In other words, I don't need paste to get there. But I don't think a Coti edge would ever get all the way to that point, so there's that sort of thing to factor in. I can get pretty brisk edges off cotis though, so they're not totally out of the running...
Wow! Now that is a dissertation worthy of a doctorate.👍😊💈
 
I think it’s about the edge and not the razor, leaving out spike points-those are deadly.

I think a great coticule edge is very forgiving, meaning if you didn’t get great lather you won’t pay for with a million weepers.

Synthetic and paste edges can be very, very sharp but if everything isn’t perfect you pay for it.

Any properly honed razor with cut you if you slice, come in too sleep, etc, etc

For me, JNAT edges are the sweet spot between smooth and sharp
 
Concentrating just on the blade:
During their life span Feather AC blades can be any of the above.
They start as unforgiving blade for the first 2-3 shaves, then become a different blade - much more forgiving - and can manage to hold that edge for quite a few (10-15) shaves.


Some valuable general lessons can be learnt from Feather AC blades:
- An extremely sharp blade does not necessarily provide a smooth shave.
- An optimum edge has traded some of its potential sharpness for smoothness.
- A light touch is REALLY important.
- The first shave is never the best.
- Palm stropping (to tame the edge of a new AC blade) is not inherently dangerous.


Not everybody might agree, but that’s fine by me…



B.
 
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