finishing a straight with a translucent arkansas

[mikromicke]

I sent an email to Dan's Whetstones to ask about if they thought their stones needed lapping or not. This is their reply:

"After the stones have been hand cut on our diamond saws - we send them to our finishing department where they are ran on our large lapidary wheel to be finished. This process takes out the saw marks and do the final sizing on the stones. The surface of the stones should be flat. Each piece is worked by hand...........and we do our best to make them as flat as possible. "

Sounds like they should be decently flat then I guess.

I have no problems with slow stones and I like learning. Unfortunately there is very little information out there on straight razor honing on Arkansas. I guess I can always keep experimenting

 

[Scotchhound1969]

I sent an email to Dan's Whetstones to ask about if they thought their stones needed lapping or not. This is their reply:

"After the stones have been hand cut on our diamond saws - we send them to our finishing department where they are ran on our large lapidary wheel to be finished. This process takes out the saw marks and do the final sizing on the stones. The surface of the stones should be flat. Each piece is worked by hand...........and we do our best to make them as flat as possible. "

Sounds like they should be decently flat then I guess.

I have no problems with slow stones and I like learning. Unfortunately there is very little information out there on straight razor honing on Arkansas. I guess I can always keep experimenting

Ive yet to purchase a new Arkansas, that didnt need additional lapping/flattening. If you decide to hone on Arkansas, you'll benefit from buying some diamond plates for lapping. I have 220, 400 and 1000 grit diamond plates, i use exclusively for stone lapping.
I use a grease pen and mark horizontal and diagonal grids on the hones, then lap until all pen marks are gone. You'll see, once you start lapping, just how non-flat the factory surfaces of these hones really are.

 

[mikromicke]

Thanks, I should probably at least test the stone to see how they look. So far I've only looked at the reflection from their surfaces and that doesn't seem to be distorted at all but there can still be minor things I assume.

 

[mparker762]

Sounds like they should be decently flat then I guess.

They're fine for knives and chisels, but they're not flat enough for razors, and if you're trying to finish on one then they aren't polished enough either.

 

[DavyRay]

I'm just playing the parrot here, as I am not experienced at SR honing.
Other threads I've read suggest that the Arkansas stones are:

1. Variable (as are many natural stones)
2. The stone is simply too hard. The abrasive bits are in a matrix of slick and hard stone. You have to wear down the matrix to get to the abrasive bits to get any metal cut. The matrix is not hard enough to really cut metal. It just gets in the way.

Secondhand information. YMMV.

 

[mikromicke]

Just to put the info in the thread (if someone else would like to know): I tested the translucent arkansas stone from Dan's whetstones yesterday. I drew a grid on it with a pencil and put it on a very fine sandpaper against a large, polished marble benchtop. All pencil lines disappeared after about 1 min of "lapping" except for one small piece on one of the corners.

So I still assume it's flat

 

[mparker762]

So I still assume it's flat

You lucked out then, or maybe they've changed their lapping system. None of mine, from either Dan's (white hard 6x2x1, pink translucent 4x3x1, gray translucent 10x3x1) or Hall's Pro Edge (red soft 12x3x1, white hard 12x3x1), were remotely that flat.

However, the other reason to lap these stones is that they need to be broken in before they will produce a really good edge, and lapping them on 1k or 2k grid sandpaper helps do that. The abrasives in these stones are large particles which reduces their ability to produce the sort of edge we need, but as these particles wear their surface flattens out so the hone cuts slower and more finely.

 

[mikromicke]

I guess that since n=1 here I shouldn't draw any real conclusions on the flatness of there stones

Thanks for the info on the other reason for lapping. Didn't know that and it seems to make good sense. I'll go over them with 2500 paper and see what happens.

 

[bth88]

I'm just playing the parrot here, as I am not experienced at SR honing.
Other threads I've read suggest that the Arkansas stones are:

1. Variable (as are many natural stones)
2. The stone is simply too hard. The abrasive bits are in a matrix of slick and hard stone. You have to wear down the matrix to get to the abrasive bits to get any metal cut. The matrix is not hard enough to really cut metal. It just gets in the way.

Secondhand information. YMMV.

The skinny on them imo is this. All natural stones vary. You're never going to get exactly what the next guy has for better or for worse. They're not cookie cutter perfection like a man made stone but they do in fact have their advantages. My favorite advantage is once they're flattened they almost never need to be flattened again. They can be had fairly cheap if you know what to look for. They can put a fantastic edge on if you know their strengths and weaknesses.

Also as a general rule if you want those ark's to cut faster use kerosine. Clog less use a 50/50 cut of kerosine and mineral oil. A semi-perfect balance 1 to 3 parts kerosine. Another thing to add to the equation is the breaking in of the stone, brand new right out of the box they don't perform as well as one that has had a few hundred laps of a blade. Also I find that finishing up on a ultra-fine ark (add a dab of diamond paste big +) after say a few rounds on a coticule puts a very nice edge on. Strop and be done with it.

If all I had were oilstones I could make it happen. I don't use ark's exclusively, but when I do I choose dos arkuis. Stay thirsty my friends.

 

[tomjr]

my translucent arki seems to work very well 4 me as a finisher. i use thuri's, norton's, llyn m & coti's IMO the arki gives up nothing in shave quality or keenness. they have been in use by me for razors since i started using a straight razor. there are many paths to a great edge. YMMV.

 

[Gamma]

my translucent arki seems to work very well 4 me as a finisher. i use thuri's, norton's, llyn m & coti's IMO the arki gives up nothing in shave quality or keenness. they have been in use by me for razors since i started using a straight razor. there are many paths to a great edge. YMMV.

+1

 

[Slash McCoy]

I have in the past used hard arks with diamond paste. A good, flat translucent arkie of respectable size makes a great substrate for the diamond. As for "clean" honing with any extra hard arkie, well, it just takes too darn long, for me. I don't use rocks at all, these days, except for breadknifing, etc. I am a film man, now. No surprises or disappointments with film. It is fast, easy, and inexpensive. The whole entire kit for everything from maintenance honing to major edge repair fits nicely in a pocket of my briefcase. I enjoy a nice big honing surface. Nothing precious that I can get attached to.

I think the faster naturals and the synthetics just offer too many advantages over arkies for many people to get excited over them. They can certainly be used, but for most, they are just not the BEST option.

I do kind of like the feedback from the not-so-hard ones, though. sort of a sh-RASSSSHSHSH sound and a tingly sort of vibration in the razor, and a nice draw change as the bevel mates itself to the stone. I particularly like the softer arks for pocketknives. Except I now use film for them, as well.

 

[stonehenge]

One thing to remember is that translucent arkansas stones are finish stones. You really need a good edge already in place to really take advantage of them. A translucent stone removes metal very slowly. A true black arkansas almost doesn't remove any metal at all. While these stones won't really create an edge if you don't already have one without spending a very long time at it, they can ruin a good edge quickly with a few bad strokes. I think most people get frustrated with them in that they don't have a good enough edge created before going to these stones, or when they finally do go to them, bad technique causes them to make their edge worse rather than better. I went through years of dissatisfaction until I saw how my technique was letting me down with finish arkansas stones.

With a coticule or one of the other stones that remove more metal quickly, if you make a mistake and change angle on your razor or knife, chances are your edge will still remain sharp as you will create a secondary micro-bevel. Not what a person wants, but at least the edge still cuts and is sharp. Do the same thing with a finish Arkansas stone and you round the edge at best, or really blunt the edge at worst. Either way, the edge is dull and the arkansas stone is usually blamed - even though it is bad technique, not the stone that caused the problem. Arkansas finish stones are the most unforgiving stones I have ever worked with. But if your technique is good, they can give as good a polished edge as most things out there.

 

[mazemaze]

One thing to remember is that translucent arkansas stones are finish stones. You really need a good edge already in place to really take advantage of them. A translucent stone removes metal very slowly. A true black arkansas almost doesn't remove any metal at all. While these stones won't really create an edge if you don't already have one without spending a very long time at it, they can ruin a good edge quickly with a few bad strokes. I think most people get frustrated with them in that they don't have a good enough edge created before going to these stones, or when they finally do go to them, bad technique causes them to make their edge worse rather than better. I went through years of dissatisfaction until I saw how my technique was letting me down with finish arkansas stones.

With a coticule or one of the other stones that remove more metal quickly, if you make a mistake and change angle on your razor or knife, chances are your edge will still remain sharp as you will create a secondary micro-bevel. Not what a person wants, but at least the edge still cuts and is sharp. Do the same thing with a finish Arkansas stone and you round the edge at best, or really blunt the edge at worst. Either way, the edge is dull and the arkansas stone is usually blamed - even though it is bad technique, not the stone that caused the problem. Arkansas finish stones are the most unforgiving stones I have ever worked with. But if your technique is good, they can give as good a polished edge as most things out there.

May I ask what mistakes you made honing on the arkansas? How many laps would you aim for, when you are coming off a 8k Naniwa e.g. ? Do you consider 100 rounds enough? How do you manage to stay off the stones edges?

 

[cugel]

I just got an old trans ark from a member here and have been experimenting. Take home message: IF and that's a big IF, I have a truly shave-ready edge, I can put it on the ark w/ mineral oil and it will make it a notch more keen, and smoother. Even when stropping the blade post-ark has a different, smoother feel.

I used a bit a pressure, circles, ending with edge trailing strokes followed by x strokes. The edge trailing strokes are useful for me because they help insure perfect contact with the stone, in my experience, and provide more feedback. All in all, 5-10 minutes of work, tops. Wiping the blade revealed a touch of swarf, so I know it was doing something. HHT was very good, so at least I didn't kill it. Must test it out.

On the other hand, I did the same with a different "shave-ready" blade and found the ark made it extremely keen but not the toe. I wasn't shocked, because could feel the toe was giving weird feedback on the ark. So after all of this, I used some pressure, half x strokes, circles, edge trailing, the works, on the trans ark to see what it would do. The toe was still poor but the rest brutally keen. So, it make the good parts of the edge better but not help the bad parts.

So, in my hands a bit of pressure is fine, but your technique has to be perfect. No bad strokes. The ark will spit back at you. After an 8k naniwa should be fine, just make sure the edge is spot on, then put it on the ark. Just work it like crazy for 5 minutes and see what happens. I don't have to baby it provided my strokes are on point and I keep the blade in contact with the stone at all times. Don't lift the spine. You will know if you have a bad stroke by the tactile feedback. At that point you may be in trouble.

 

[C FrankC]

Interesting re-opening an 11-year-old post but to try to answer your questions.
There are a few common mistakes when finishing on an Ark, some are trying to finish on a stone that's not a finisher or is not prepped properly to behave as a finisher. The stone has to have an appropriate matrix and the surface then has to be prepped correctly, dead flat and surfaced to between 600>1K grit is where my stones finish best.

Another problem can be jumping to the Ark with an edge not sufficiently refined, a very well done 8K shaving edge will usually be enough but you will have to nail the 8K edge, personally I pre-finish @ 10>12K then on to my finishing Ark.

Not doing enough strokes, finishing Arks tend to be rather slow compared to some other finishers and I have never had much success adding extra pressure. (Sometimes quit a few laps are necessary). I never count laps but it's not unusual for it to take me 15 min. to get the HHT I am looking for.

Honing medium matters, so oils, H2O or/and Ballistol or other water-soluble oil mixes can have an effect on outcome.

And perhaps the most common when first starting out is an errant stroke, Arks are fairly unforgiving when it comes to even just one miss-placed stroke or lifting of the spine.

To keep from interfacing w/the edges of your stone simply chamfer them and use the appropriate care

 

[duke762]

+1

My feeling exactly. Great rewards once mastered. One of, if not the most. misunderstood stones. Frequently surrounded by sometimes questionable and illogical advice.

4 things to guarantee Trans/Black success. (works every time for me) ymmv

Flatness, which applies more to razors.

Surface prep. Dress the surface to about 600 grit with wet/dry. At this finish level the Ark will produce some swarf for a while. I feel my stones settle down about half way through the first razor. Avoid the temptation to "burnish" to stone. In my opinion a burnished or even a stone that hasn't been dressed in a while is a liability to success.

Lube. I'm partial to WD40 for the Trans/Black stones. Any really watery solution will work. Ballistol is fine, glycerine and water etc. Wd40 is the only thing I trust too help lift metal particles out of the stone to help prevent loading.

And lastly.....the edge off the previous stone is the biggest factor in Ark success. Take your best edge to the Ark and it will refine it. Slack on this and you will be eternally frustrated with your Ark.

Keep in mind I'm a total Arkaholic and my judgement may be skewed.....

 

[cugel]

WD40? I will have to give it a try.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Lol,

Times have changed. Charnley's have been tried by a lot of people now and there's still a guy or two who like em, but they're not really spoken of in the same conversation with the standard razor finishers and like three different guys in the UK now go around and raid people's garages and boot sales to sell on eBay, so they are easy to get. Around when this thread was posted, they were a bit of a flavor of the month as the operator of another forum dedicated to straight razors had stated they were his favorite finish. The market went nuts after that for awhile... $300+ for a typical Charnley was common. Once a few of us got our hands on them and tried them (most are mediocre finishers for a razor, the ultra fine ones are Ok at best - in my opinion), the market crashed and you could snag them for $50 for awhile. Now they've bounced back to where I feel they belong ($50-150 depending on size and character).

On the other hand, Translucent Arks have become a pretty typical option (though still, I'd say, a bit of a specialist stone for guys who are already comfortable with easier options).

Personally, I have a number of Charns that are used weekly for several knives. And translucent/SB Arks have long had a standard position on my shelf for razors (since maybe a year or two after this thread)... albeit a slightly less frequently used option vs my favored natural waterstones (Jnat, Thuri,PDSO, Coti).

 

[cotedupy]

I'm pretty new to razor honing and haven't found translucent or black arks to be too difficult, as long as you pay attention. I personally do like a burnished side for further refining already good edges off a finishing stone. Though I keep the other side roughed; if you do make a small mistake - and I have a couple of times - a roughed trans or hard black will sort it out quite quickly, they can cut really quite fast with an atoma 140 or 400 finish, if only for a little while.

I've not tried my Charnleys on a razor yet. Mostly because they don't give me the impression that they'd be true razor finishers. At a guess they're sitting around 10k so I'm sure I could shave off them, but I'm not expecting an edge as good as off some other stones. I'll try it at some point, maybe I'll be surprised.