finishing a straight with a translucent arkansas

[spoondude]

It seems that Arkansas stones are not particularly favored in this community. In fact, I seem to only see water stones be discussed in any length.

This is interesting...there ARE significant differences in how metal is removed via a water stone vs. an oil stone. I've done a bit of watch making during my life, and have had to learn to use abrasives of all kinds in that obsessive trade. Everything from gypsum to graphite and diamontine as powders, and "honing" stones of many types. when burnishing a pivot, the options are completely open to you. I liked aluminum oxide powders at first, on the end of a piece of shaped pegwood. You see, the aluminum oxide starts to break down in use, and becomes finer and finer, making a finer surface as time goes on. You see the same effect when trying to lap a flat using three surfaces. You never need to change grit as the grit simply becomes finer and finer as you lap. eventually, your flats will stick together like gage blocks. (I did NOT mispell that).

You can also used stones instead of powders on wood. Both powders and stones can use water or oil as a lubricant and slurry holder. Cutting dry is fastest, water next, and oil slowest cutting. Surface finish? Dry is roughest, water next, and oil finest. This applies to both stones and powders. It applies in every case.

With the above in mind, it is absolutely mind boggling to me that there is just about NO vocal fans of oil stones in this forum. I also don't think I have heard ANYONE use a glass or metal lapping plate, charged with some ultra fine abrasive to finish polish a razor. Yes, I heard about pasted strops, which will round out an edge. if the pasted strop is a zink block, you wont get the rounding effect on the edge.

Now, with all the above said, it seems I have some work ahead of me to become good at honing my razors. You guys know a lot more about this than I do. So I ask you: Why are translucent Arkansas and other oil stones virtually ignored? Why don't we use a lapping plate and abrasive slurry as the final stage of polishing that edge?

I want to become good at this, and I am hoping there are some of you out there that will take pity on me and fill my head with good data I just don't seem to find what I am looking for in any of the forums.

Cheers!
--Carl

 

[SliceOfLife]

I tried a trans ark awhile back and didn't like it. I'm starting to suspect that I didn't polish the stone well enough to get real results though, so I'm giving it another shot in the near future.

Seraphim uses lapping films on granite plates to hone, and I believe there are one or two folks that use abrasive powders, but it's pretty rare. I like natural waterstones for ease of use and convenience.


Charnley Forests are favored by a couple guys as oilstones, but they are ridiculously hard to come by.

I believe I've heard of one honer that swears by Arkansas, but most people seem to have poor results with them (very slow and edge not refined enough to compare to some natural whetstones).

 

[mparker762]

With the above in mind, it is absolutely mind boggling to me that there is just about NO vocal fans of oil stones in this forum. I also don't think I have heard ANYONE use a glass or metal lapping plate, charged with some ultra fine abrasive to finish polish a razor. Yes, I heard about pasted strops, which will round out an edge. if the pasted strop is a zink block, you wont get the rounding effect on the edge.

The rounding effect with strops is way overblown. The "rounding" isn't really a rounding of the edge but rather an arching of the bevel. There have been long-term experiments done by members here and on SRP with pasted strops, both hardwood and leather paddle strops, and pasted hanging strops, and the arching effect seems to be nonexistent with a pasted hardwood strop and extremely minimal with a pasted leather strop, and seems to stabilize very quickly. Additionally, the effect of an arched bevel is similar to the effect produced by a double bevel (which is generally regarded as a good thing) only continuous instead of stepwise (which is also a good thing). Further evidence for this is that Gillette's current generation honing machines (ca 1989 onward) produce a continuously arched bevel, and their patent claims this produces a stronger longer-lasting edge. Given their research budget I'm inclined to believe them. IMO at this point "rounding effect is bad" should be considered an old wives tale. The one exception is pasted hanging strops which can wipe off the edge if you aren't careful, but that's a separate matter.

There are some differences between honing a razor and polishing a flat. The fragile edge is the big one; whatever you're doing to remove metal must not collapse or abrade the thin edge, nor create burrs and wires. Waterstones do a better job of protecting the edge than oilstones. Secondly, there are easier/cheaper/prettier ways to get the effect you want with razors, including stropping on newspaper (free!), or charging a block of hardwood with some ultra-fine abrasive and stropping on that (cheap!) and which won't round off the edge either, or using a japanese natural waterstone (expensive but pretty) which contain aluminum oxide as the abrasive.

Now, with all the above said, it seems I have some work ahead of me to become good at honing my razors. You guys know a lot more about this than I do. So I ask you: Why are translucent Arkansas and other oil stones virtually ignored?

They're not ignored. We tried them many times and found that there were faster, cheaper, and better alternatives for producing a sharp shaving edge. But if you want to use them then go ahead, I still use my translucent arkansas and charnley forest hones on occasion. But I do it because they're fun to use or I'm bored or just want a change, not because they're the best hones available. Even if you're willing to put up with the slow honing speed, the problem is that there are other equally slow but equally fine alternatives that are a fraction of the price, like the Peoples Hone of Indeterminate Grit (aka PHIG aka Chinese 12k), or any number of barber hones.

Why don't we use a lapping plate and abrasive slurry as the final stage of polishing that edge?

Because a hardwood pasted paddle does about as well during the initial honing phase, and is more useful for pre-shave touch-ups since you can haul it out, give the razor a few laps, and put it back away in a matter of seconds. Some of the honemeisters may well use lapping plates and slurries, that process has been discussed around here before. But unless you're honing a bunch of razors it's a bit of a chore, and even then the 3M lapping films are awfully fast and convenient.

 

[spoondude]

mparker, I'm guessing you must have had the same questions asked of you at some point previously ;-) You completely answered my asked (and unasked) questions in a way I can understand. Thank you.

I've gotta try those 3M lapping films - never used them.Im buiding a prototype Stirling engine (as a proof of concept) and have been considering how to lap in a bronze or brass cylinder (never ever lapped brass before). I have wondered if the lapping films bonded to a machined mandrel might do the trick. It will have a graphite piston, so I don't want any abrasive embedded in the cylinder walls. Now I have another reason to buy the films

 

[LarryAndro]

I used chromium oxide lapping film from 3M for a week or two, and haven't since. The lapping film worked great. I just get good results other ways.

... I have wondered if the lapping films bonded to a machined mandrel might do the trick. ...

Since I didn't know whether I would continue to to use lapping film, I didn't go thru much trouble... just laid the film on a flat surface. (A piece of glass works fine.)

If you decide lapping films are your thing, affixing them to about any flat surface will work. The film is pretty stiff.

 

[Scotchhound1969]

Well, i am glad someone has brought the Arkansas up and i do hope more good information about them, with regards to how they work with straights, does get discussed here. I admit, i dont talk that much about them, because the do get a bad rap, in the straight razor communities, even though my personal sucesses have often been different from the opinions that have been given on their effectiveness as hones.
I have a full series of Arkansas stones, as well as many vintage ones, including a few Charnley Forest stones and they were the first hones i used, when i learned to sharpen and polish straight razors. I have had many superb shaves off of them, i must say.
However, they are not as exotic stones to me, having used them my whole life along with much of my family, unlike some of the good natural water hones out there, so i use them less these days...with exception of the white hard Arkansas i use with slurry to set bevels.
I would never say anything bad about oilstones, in any case, its just that they have serious competition, given some of the European and Japanese natural water stones out there...and i am ever curious about stones. lol

 

[mikromicke]

I bought a hard and a translucent arkansas stone for my kitchen knives. I've tried honing two straight on them, first tries ever, and ended up with a decent edge. I had to finish with CrO strop though so I'm not sure I'm doing this the right way. It feels as if the quality of the edge from the translucent is great for kitchen knives but so far I feel that it's not as sharp as I would like it for my straight. Then again I could be doing this wrong ...

 

[Scotchhound1969]

I should have mentioned earlier, that after finishing off the Arkansas translucent, i strop on a 1.0 micron diamond pasted strop, then 0.5 micron CrOx pasted strop, followed by HA leather strop. Never quite could get a great shave off of the translucent alone, but with the additional stropping the edge was pretty good. I was able to exclude the 1.0 micron pasted strop, once i got my Charnley Forest stones. Really like those!

 

[mikromicke]

Sounds like what I'm experiencing then

 

[mparker762]

You should be able to get a great shave off the translucent or black. But the stone is sloooow, so there's a tendency to abandon it before it's done.

 

[TstebinsB]

I should have mentioned earlier, that after finishing off the Arkansas translucent, i strop on a 1.0 micron diamond pasted strop, then 0.5 micron CrOx pasted strop, followed by HA leather strop. Never quite could get a great shave off of the translucent alone, but with the additional stropping the edge was pretty good. I was able to exclude the 1.0 micron pasted strop, once i got my Charnley Forest stones. Really like those!

I've never used the Black but you shouldn't need anything after the Hard Translucent Arkansas. It should give you a great edge. Did you lap yours?

 

[mikromicke]

I haven't lapped mine at least. I got if from Dan's Whetstones and it looks pretty flat to me ... which doesn't mean that it really it is. Is there any good description anywhere on how to lap them and how to know if it needs to be done or not?

 

[Scotchhound1969]

I've never used the Black but you shouldn't need anything after the Hard Translucent Arkansas. It should give you a great edge. Did you lap yours?

Yah...i have diamond plates, ive sacrificed to flatten the Arkansas. Ive gotten good shaves off of the translucent, just had to use pasted strops to match or near match, my Escher and Nakayama shaves...however, it is quite possible, i didnt stay on the Translucent as long as needed. Anyone have a guess or near guess as to the number of laps required? I used to finish off of about 100-200 laps, on the Translucent, with oil.
If people want to know, i can give what progressions of Arkansas and estimated laps, ive used in the past. Would be happy to hear any and all critiques of my methods...no such thing as too much knowledge, imo.

 

[mparker762]

Anyone have a guess or near guess as to the number of laps required?

Such numbers are meaningless, since it's heavily dependent on what you used on the previous step, how good your honing skills are, how your stone was prepped, etc. You simply have to use your best judgement as to how it's progressing and when it's done.

I used to finish off of about 100-200 laps, on the Translucent, with oil.

I use water and a dab of lather, or an extremely thin oil like WD-40 or Kroil. Normal knife-honing oil is too thick. There's so little metal being removed from the razor that normal honing oil is overkill, yet at the same time there's so much more of a suction effect from a razor's bevel that the thicker oil is also counterproductive to attaining the sharpness you need.

Water and lather does a fine job of keeping the stone clean.

 

[Scotchhound1969]

I spent a great deal of time, in the past testing the Arkansas using slurries, generated from a diamond card and found them to speed up the honing/progression considerably. I need to go back to them to get some ball park numbers, for those interested in Arkansas.
I'm still not convinced that one can get an edge off of a Translucent, competative with Escher's or Nakayama's, by simply using more strokes,(without additional pasted stropping,) but i will give it another run or two. I just think their are finishing limits to the hone itself, frankly...but that is just an opinion, based on the hones i have. Possibly there are translucents out there with more finishing capabilities, like the pink translucent.

Thanks.

 

[Sparq]

I spent a great deal of time, in the past testing the Arkansas using slurries, generated from a diamond card and found them to speed up the honing/progression considerably. I need to go back to them to get some ball park numbers, for those interested in Arkansas.
I'm still not convinced that one can get an edge off of a Translucent, competative with Escher's or Nakayama's, by simply using more strokes,(without additional pasted stropping,) but i will give it another run or two. I just think their are finishing limits to the hone itself, frankly...but that is just an opinion, based on the hones i have. Possibly there are translucents out there with more finishing capabilities, like the pink translucent.

Thank you Scotchhound. How do the fine Arkansas hones compare to your Charnley Forest? My CF is a superb finisher and quite quick when used with slurry.

 

[mparker762]

My Charnley Forest is comparable to my translucents. FWIW Charnley Forest hones are novaculite, like arkansas stones and the turkish oilstones.

 

[mikromicke]

I did a new try yesterday. 50 passes on hard arkansas followed by 150 passes on the translucent. The edge seemed good for coming of the hard stone but I couldn't really see much improvement after the translucent. I tried shaving with it straight from the translucent and that was a shave with a lot of tugging. After CrOx and leather stropping I ended up getting a really nice shave but I still feel that this blade can get a lot sharper than what it was now. Nowhere near passing the HHT.

What would the solution be here. Add something after the translucent, exchange it for something else or what?

 

[Scotchhound1969]

Thank you Scotchhound. How do the fine Arkansas hones compare to your Charnley Forest? My CF is a superb finisher and quite quick when used with slurry.

Sparq: My Charnley's i have and use, finish quite a bit higher than my tranlucents, (newly quarried as well as vintage.) In fact, i think they compete with some Eschers and Nakayama's, though they are slower, imo...but slower hones have never been a turn-off to me. However, not all natural hones are created equal, so there is no doubt Charnley's out there that perform at a translucent level. I have friends that hate them, (slow,) and friends that love them, but all agree they are good finishers.

 

[mparker762]

What would the solution be here. Add something after the translucent, exchange it for something else or what?

Arkansas stones aren't the easiest to use. If you're not interested in putting in the elbow grease required to lap them properly, the time required to use them, and the learning curve to master them (not intended negatively, most people aren't interested in that sort of thing, which is why arks aren't very popular around here), then I'd recommend switching to something faster and easier to use like the Shapton or Naniwa line.