Fine Wine Buying

[cotedupy]

So Oli @cotedupy 100% Gamay 2021 vintage - what to expect and when to drink?

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Ah, so I'd be interested to hear what you make of that, because it's likely to be a little atypical. You may probably know much of what I'm about to say, and I haven't tried that wine so let me put you off, the below is just my opinion!

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Moulin-a-Vent is a very small appellation right at the northern end of Beaujolais, bordering the Macon in southern Burgundy*. And of all the Crus M-a-V has suffered most from an influx of Burgundy producers in the last 20-ish years looking to expand into the cheaper Beaujolais vineyard sites to the south.

And I use the word 'suffered' advisedly. Because along with their money, almost all have also brought with them what might be termed 'Burgundian' fermentation and elevage, they have transposed the winemaking techniques used for Pinot Noir in Burgundy onto Gamay de Beaujolais. Which wouldn't be much of a problem anywhere else in the world or for any other grape variety...

But Beaujolais is special.

And without carbonic, or semi-carbonic, maceration - it isn't. Gamay doesn't work with initial crushing, or heavy extract, or barriques, or new oak, or any of the other reasons that Moulin-a-Vent is dying.


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* Burgundy (n) /ˈbəːɡ(ə)ndi/
A large and disparate region just to the north of the Beaujolais, producing wines of variable quality. At their best they can on occasion rival those of the Ten Crus.

 

[cotedupy]

I will, however, confess to loving the more austere style that was common in Napa back in the 1960s. There are still a few wineries which stick more or less to that style. Clos du Val is a favorite in that regard.

This is interesting. I must confess I've never tasted any Napa Cab going back that far. I shall look out for Clos du Val, any other contemporary recommendations along similar lines...?

 

[Tirvine]

This is interesting. I must confess I've never tasted any Napa Cab going back that far. I shall look out for Clos du Val, any other contemporary recommendations along similar lines...?

The one I had recently that reminded me of that style was a Daou Sonoma. It was a good deal, too. Now and then some of the old line Napa wineries like Louis Martini, Parducci, Freemark Abbey, and Inglenook show a bit of that style. Mondavi, BV, and Heitz not so much anymore.

 

[Multum in parvo]

Ah, so I'd be interested to hear what you make of that, because it's likely to be a little atypical. You may probably know much of what I'm about to say, and I haven't tried that wine so let me put you off, the below is just my opinion!

---

Moulin-a-Vent is a very small appellation right at the northern end of Beaujolais, bordering the Macon in southern Burgundy*. And of all the Crus M-a-V has suffered most from an influx of Burgundy producers in the last 20-ish years looking to expand into the cheaper Beaujolais vineyard sites to the south.

And I use the word 'suffered' advisedly. Because along with their money, almost all have also brought with them what might be termed 'Burgundian' fermentation and elevage, they have transposed the winemaking techniques used for Pinot Noir in Burgundy onto Gamay de Beaujolais. Which wouldn't be much of a problem anywhere else in the world or for any other grape variety...

But Beaujolais is special.

And without carbonic, or semi-carbonic, maceration - it isn't. Gamay doesn't work with initial crushing, or heavy extract, or barriques, or new oak, or any of the other reasons that Moulin-a-Vent is dying.


---


* Burgundy (n) /ˈbəːɡ(ə)ndi/
A large and disparate region just to the north of the Beaujolais, producing wines of variable quality. At their best they can on occasion rival those of the Ten Crus.

So in essence, if it easy drinking it’s rubbish!

This one was not a big gamble at 15 Euros. I believe one of the main reasons that I have shied away from Burgundy until now is that whole Trading House thing as most of the stuff in Austria is either Domaine driven or done by Cooperatives.

 

[Multum in parvo]

Ah, so I'd be interested to hear what you make of that, because it's likely to be a little atypical. You may probably know much of what I'm about to say, and I haven't tried that wine so let me put you off, the below is just my opinion!

---

Moulin-a-Vent is a very small appellation right at the northern end of Beaujolais, bordering the Macon in southern Burgundy*. And of all the Crus M-a-V has suffered most from an influx of Burgundy producers in the last 20-ish years looking to expand into the cheaper Beaujolais vineyard sites to the south.

And I use the word 'suffered' advisedly. Because along with their money, almost all have also brought with them what might be termed 'Burgundian' fermentation and elevage, they have transposed the winemaking techniques used for Pinot Noir in Burgundy onto Gamay de Beaujolais. Which wouldn't be much of a problem anywhere else in the world or for any other grape variety...

But Beaujolais is special.

And without carbonic, or semi-carbonic, maceration - it isn't. Gamay doesn't work with initial crushing, or heavy extract, or barriques, or new oak, or any of the other reasons that Moulin-a-Vent is dying.


---


* Burgundy (n) /ˈbəːɡ(ə)ndi/
A large and disparate region just to the north of the Beaujolais, producing wines of variable quality. At their best they can on occasion rival those of the Ten Crus.

Darker and more robust than expected, little bit of violet reflexes. In the nose a bunch of red fruits but no flowers, black currant or garden soil. Low on tannins and bright acidity as expected.

My wife which is really skeptical about Reds in general and even more about my usual choices declared it as „fine“ so easily approachable —> check!

We progressed to have half a bottle with some cold cuts where it fitted just right in. Overall it reminded me a bit about Austrian St. Laurent which is most of the time seen as Poor Man’s Pinot hereabouts.

 

[FL shaver]

Looking to compare…
I have a 2019 on the way. I wish I could have purchased it for €15, but it’s worth the experience.

 

[cotedupy]

So in essence, if it easy drinking it’s rubbish!

Haha, not at all... what we want is easy drinking!

Darker and more robust than expected, little bit of violet reflexes.

Overall it reminded me a bit about Austrian St. Laurent which is most of the time seen as Poor Man’s Pinot hereabouts.

Your tasting notes here are pretty much spot on what I would've expected, the comparison to St Laurent is particularly apt I think.

Even in a colder vintage like 2021, the 'Burgundian' fermentation still makes a wine more full-bodied than you'd normally associate or expect from Beaujolais. Whereas full or semi carbonic maceration makes it lighter in both colour and tannin. (And easier drinking, perhaps... )

And of course there will be some people who prefer one style, some the other. As with anything in wine it's not a matter of 'right' or 'wrong', just that I happen to feel particularly strongly about the merits of 'traditional' Beaujolais... as you can probably tell!

 

[cotedupy]

The one I had recently that reminded me of that style was a Daou Sonoma. It was a good deal, too. Now and then some of the old line Napa wineries like Louis Martini, Parducci, Freemark Abbey, and Inglenook show a bit of that style. Mondavi, BV, and Heitz not so much anymore.

Ta!

I know most of those producers, but don't think I've ever tried/come across Daou Sonoma, Louis Martini, or Parducci. Will keep an eye out for them at trade tastings.

 

[FL shaver]

Moulin-à-Vent | Maison Joseph Drouhin

www.drouhin.com

Just to understand, this bottle is made in traditional Beaujolais fashion?

 

[Multum in parvo]

Moulin-à-Vent | Maison Joseph Drouhin

www.drouhin.com

Just to understand, this bottle is made in traditional Beaujolais fashion?

No, that was the start of the discussion with Oli @cotedupy
I did a blind buy homing in on Region and vintage while he told us that this is the 1 out of 10 Crus where it is common to do Gamay as they do Pinot Noir in Burgundy.

JD is a big House Appellations & Millésimes | Maison Joseph Drouhin - https://www.drouhin.com/fr_FR/nos-vins and not a traditional small Domaine.

 

[FL shaver]

Thanks for helping me understand this better. After a bit of researching I saw that this is a large house. The tech sheet mentions semi maceration fermentation, though, and stainless steel vat aging. How does this differ from how Beaujolais Gamay was traditionally produced?

 

[Multum in parvo]

Thanks for helping me understand this better. After a bit of researching I saw that this is a large house. The tech sheet mentions semi maceration fermentation, though, and stainless steel vat aging. How does this differ from how Beaujolais Gamay was traditionally produced?

I believe my English would not be up to the task so I shamelessly snatched two pics…

This is the way

Not the way (right side Burgundian)

 

[Tirvine]

Ta!

I know most of those producers, but don't think I've ever tried/come across Daou Sonoma, Louis Martini, or Parducci. Will keep an eye out for them at trade tastings.

Sorry. Error. The Daou was Paso Robles.

 

[Doc4]

I happen to feel particularly strongly about the merits of 'traditional' Beaujolais

This is the way

Pardon my limited knowledge ... hopefully you can help.

So ... traditional Beaujolais is done by carbonic maceration ... removing the oxygen and letting the grapes off-gas carbon dioxide which leads to fermentation. So this method seems to me to be something easy enough to do with modern technology (let's say after WWII or thereabouts.) But how would they manage that 100 years ago? 200 years ago? Without steel vats and vacuum pumps, this seems rather hard to do.

 

[Multum in parvo]

Pardon my limited knowledge ... hopefully you can help.

So ... traditional Beaujolais is done by carbonic maceration ... removing the oxygen and letting the grapes off-gas carbon dioxide which leads to fermentation. So this method seems to me to be something easy enough to do with modern technology (let's say after WWII or thereabouts.) But how would they manage that 100 years ago? 200 years ago? Without steel vats and vacuum pumps, this seems rather hard to do.

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CO2 is heavier than ambient air so it collects in the lowest part of a room/cellar and is actually quite dangerous for the vintner during fermentation. Usually you have nowadays powerful ventilation systems and monitors to get it out but with carbonic maceration it seems to be doable without killing everybody off.

 

[cotedupy]

Pardon my limited knowledge ... hopefully you can help.

So ... traditional Beaujolais is done by carbonic maceration ... removing the oxygen and letting the grapes off-gas carbon dioxide which leads to fermentation. So this method seems to me to be something easy enough to do with modern technology (let's say after WWII or thereabouts.) But how would they manage that 100 years ago? 200 years ago? Without steel vats and vacuum pumps, this seems rather hard to do.

View attachment 1726317
View attachment 1726320

A very valid question! And one that highlights something to bear in mind: There is some blurriness surrounding the precise definitions of full vs semi carbonic maceration, but I'll attempt a generalized definition...

Carbonic maceration involves putting whole bunches of uncrushed grapes into your fermentation vessel. The weight of the grapes on top crushes some of the bunches at the bottom, and the resulting juice begins a 'normal' fermentation, one of the by-products of which is CO2. Which as @Multum in parvo says is heavier than air, so sits as a blanket over the grapes above, stopping them from oxidising - they are literally 'macerated' in carbon dioxide. After this a type of fermentation begins within the grapes themselves, reaching something like 4% ABV (I understand), and leaching colour from the skins, before the grapes burst and the juice continues a 'normal' fermentation.

The main difference between full and semi carbonic would usually be whether the top of the fermenation vessel is open or closed during the period of carbonic maceration, and whether or not carbon dioxide is added, or just comes from the gas from the fermentation of the crushed grapes at the bottom. i.e. just how total the covering of CO2 is. All of which means the definition between the two isn't hard and fast, it's more of a continuum.

The traditional way in the Beaujolais would probably lean toward being semi carbonic, for some of the reasons you mentioned - to remove oxygen and pump in carbon dioxide wasn't something your c.19th vigneron was going to be able to do. Ideas and techniques are 'full' carbonic maceration were developed, as you guessed, more in the second half of the c.20th.

They would however have had access to closed anaerobic fermentation vessels before that, which don't have to be steel or plastic. In old wineries all over France and Italy you'll find old concrete or cement fermentation chambers / vessels, sometimes underground, (or even cut into the rock) each one the size of a small room.

Does all of that make sense? Long story short - it's more of a spectrum than a precise definition, and some of the techniques involved in carbonic maceration now are more recent innovations.*

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* Much of the work on this was actually done by a French chemist named Jules Chauvet. He was renowned within his lifetime for a number of things, but since his death in the late '80s has become most famous as the grandfather of what we might call the 'natural wine' movement. The idea that natural wine is a kind of laissez-faire return to ancient winemaking techniques is somewhat wide of the mark. Good natural winemaking is heavily rooted in scientific knowledge.

 

[cotedupy]

is actually quite dangerous for the vintner during fermentation

This is certainly very true, and people die probably every year because of it. The big danger comes when trying to crush grapes by foot in large open-top fermentation tanks or barrels, something I've done a couple of times and it's a rather peculiar experience...

The vessels are full of grapes and considerably taller than the height of a person, so you climb up a ladder to the top and jump in, making sure to be holding onto the side(!). You then start stamping as best you can, working your way round the outside of the vat. It's tiring work anyway, but compounded by the fact that the fermentation has already been going at this point, so the 'air' around you is full of CO2, and within minutes you can feel your muscles starting to cramp up from lack of oxygen.

Ideally you have one or two people on ladders around the side who can then haul you out when you give the signal, but if you don't, and you can't get yourself out - that's when people die. By drowning in a vat of fermenting grapes.

 

[The Knize]

Wow, I am impressed by this thread!

 

[Dtownvino]

Wow, I am impressed by this thread!

It is a very good thread indeed!

 

[Dtownvino]

By the way, what is everyone’s favorite wine cork removing device?

I tend to use a

Monopol Westmark Germany Steel Two-Prong Cork Puller ​

as well as The Durand for vintage corks.