Fine Wine Buying

[Dtownvino]

Just tasted a Cab Franc at Pride last Saturday. Fantastic stuff.

Pride has excellent cab franc. Hard to find outside of the winery and restaurants. Was Jay Hebert around during your tour? Great guy… Pride is a perfect example of mountian fruit.

Little known fact look at who Titus makes wine for. A hidden gem in Napa.

 

[Hercule]

Louis Jadot reds seem to be making a good showing these days - mature and complex on the palette. Generally speaking, anymore I tend to go for French reds and Spanish whites, though I won't turn anything down as long as it's dry. The wine of the month club (First Leaf) my wife signed me up for has offered some great wines from South Africa recently.

Speaking of dry wines, I would give anything to find a red like one I had some 25 years ago. It was so dry it quite literally took my breath away. I still get misty-eyed just remembering it.

 

[cotedupy]

Is dryness not defined as maximum remaining sugar in the final product after fermentation and as a ratio in regards to acidity?

I.e. 4 grams per liter or up to 9 grams if the acidity is at a minimum 2 grams less = dry

In essence - yes. This is the definition, and it's how the term gets used within the industry, if I was talking to a somm or winemaker or something.

However...

There is dry (little to no residual sugar) and then there is not sweet (higher tannins) and lower alcohol levels

In the meantime, Nebbiolo and Tempernillo (and many Sangiovese such as Chianti) is what I would serve to people who don’t like red because they think red is too sweet.

These points are very perceptive.

It wasn't until I worked for a while in wine retail (i.e. a shop) that I realised the general public didn't use the word 'dry' to mean that at all.

In red wines people generally use the word dry to mean 'tannic'. I assume this is because tannins literally make your mouth feel dry.

In white wines it's a bit all over the place, but most commonly I found people associate dryness with being unoaked.

With Rose you can basically give someone a light coloured wine and they'll call it dry. I've tasted White Zin next to a bone dry dark coloured rose with people who asked for a 'dry rose', and 9 times in 10 they'll buy the Zin.

 

[cotedupy]

If you didn’t recommend beaujolais with your user name I’d be seriously disappointed

But seriously they are still one of the best values in the world, especially for ones with some age. Me likey.

Seeing some mentions of pet nat and natural wines which is fun, it’s such an interesting segment of the industry. It’s cool to chat with winemakers and wine drinkers who are passionate about natural wines, and they are fun to drink even though they’re not something I gravitate towards most of the time. My local wine shop stocks a decent amount of orange wines from places like Georgia, Slovenia, Hungary etc and I always tell myself I’m going to go in and buy a handful of different ones to just taste through and compare. Hopefully sooner than later.

Haha... yes indeed - Beaujolais is my first love!

One thing to say there is that the current vintage available of the top wines from better producers is still going to be 2021. And when I first tasted Foillard's Cote du Py '21 I actually got a little teary...

Since 2017 the Beaujolais has suffered a string of very hot vintages, even in good hands the best sites were producing dense, muscular, alcoholic wines, and brett ran riot. My heart was breaking.

2021 was the exception. If you consult a traditional guide it'll tell you that '21 was a poor vintage in the region; cold, wet, difficult, and just generally bad and to be avoided. But it's a gorgeous vintage. The wines are lucent, sappy, wildly perfumed, and backed by streaky acidity. It reminds me mostly of 2013, but also of '10 and '12, and it's what Beaujolais is all about.

2022 was another heatwave, and this year Europe has simply burnt. Buy what you can of 2021 Beaujolais, because you'll probably never see its like again.

---

Slovenian wines can be flat out extraordinary. Particularly the whites, and particularly the ones from near the Italian border (Carso/Kras).

Georgian wines seem to skip about between being bland and mass-produced, and really quite uncompromising. With not much in the middle. Maybe that's changed in the last few years though.

Hungarian wines I've probably only had a handful of ever, so can't really say anything there.

 

[Multum in parvo]

In essence - yes. This is the definition, and it's how the term gets used within the industry, if I was talking to a somm or winemaker or something.

However...





These points are very perceptive.

It wasn't until I worked for a while in wine retail (i.e. a shop) that I realised the general public didn't use the word 'dry' to mean that at all.

In red wines people generally use the word dry to mean 'tannic'. I assume this is because tannins literally make your mouth feel dry.

In white wines it's a bit all over the place, but most commonly I found people associate dryness with being unoaked.

With Rose you can basically give someone a light coloured wine and they'll call it dry. I've tasted White Zin next to a bone dry dark coloured rose with people who asked for a 'dry rose', and 9 times in 10 they'll buy the Zin.

So high tannins and low primary fruity notes are perceived as „drier“ as the other way round even with the same residual sugar levels?

Funny, usually with me people then talk about varietals, the usage and ratio of new/old wood or steel and so forth but not about the general dryness of it.

 

[Multum in parvo]

Haha... yes indeed - Beaujolais is my first love!

One thing to say there is that the current vintage available of the top wines from better producers is still going to be 2021. And when I first tasted Foillard's Cote du Py '21 I actually got a little teary...

Since 2017 the Beaujolais has suffered a string of very hot vintages, even in good hands the best sites were producing dense, muscular, alcoholic wines, and brett ran riot. My heart was breaking.

2021 was the exception. If you consult a traditional guide it'll tell you that '21 was a poor vintage in the region; cold, wet, difficult, and just generally bad and to be avoided. But it's a gorgeous vintage. The wines are lucent, sappy, wildly perfumed, and backed by streaky acidity. It reminds me mostly of 2013, but also of '10 and '12, and it's what Beaujolais is all about.

2022 was another heatwave, and this year Europe has simply burnt. Buy what you can of 2021 Beaujolais, because you'll probably never see its like again.

---

Slovenian wines can be flat out extraordinary. Particularly the whites, and particularly the ones from near the Italian border (Carso/Kras).

Georgian wines seem to skip about between being bland and mass-produced, and really quite uncompromising. With not much in the middle. Maybe that's changed in the last few years though.

Hungarian wines I've probably only had a handful of ever, so can't really say anything there.

Not only the whites also the reds from the Karst in Slovenia, Teran/Refosk, are great if you like them lean.

Hungary is for me Kekfrankos which is Blaufränkisch that made it over the border from Austria

Furmint goes mostly in sweet Tokay but cared for can produce great dry whites as well.

 

[cotedupy]

Appreciate this thorough treatment from a professional. A lot of detail to get lost in, and this is helpful.

A shame that N Rhone wines will struggle in the warmer future. I love those wines.

It may not all be bad news if you're in the America... my hunch would be that in the future - vineyards in the NW USA and Canada may well become the best in the the world for N Rhone-esque Syrah. There are a lot of very talented winemakers and growers there already obviously, a lot of whom have taken huge inspiration from the Rhone. And a warming climate will probably expose sites in Oregon and Washington that are pitch-perfect for Syrah, I imagine quite a lot has been planted already.

---

One other general thing I would say, which may be slightly controversial... If you're relatively new to posh wine and looking for stuff for longer term cellaring: Don't buy the wines you like to drink.

Now obviously there's a little more nuance to that, and you may well have been drinking fancy aged wine for a while, in which case it doesn't apply. But in general, as people get more sucked into the world of wine their palates tend to change. Moving away from big, lush, immediately appealing wines, and toward lighter, more elegant styles and regions that may have seemed austere at first.

You will not regret in 20 years time if you have a few cases of Barbaresco and German Riesling laid down, you may well regret it if you bought blockbuster Barossa Shiraz and Napa Chardonnay instead.

(It may seem that I am slightly anti new world wines, but that's not necessarily the case. There are plenty of very good new world producers and a growing trend toward fresher styles. And likewise plenty of bad producers in Europe - nothing in the wine world is sadder than Barolo in 225L new oak).

 

[cotedupy]

Hungary is for me Kekfrankos which is Blaufränkisch that made it over the border from Austria

Furmint goes mostly in sweet Tokay but cared for can produce great dry whites as well.

Duh, I'm being an idiot! I was out last night and feeling a little rusty today, but in my mind I was thinking Bulgaria - I haven't had much Bulgarian wine. Loads from Hungary though, in fact a friend of mine imports quite a few good producers, and another good friend actually makes wine in Mad.

Apart from the obvious - sweet Tokaji - I'm very long on dry Furmint, especially when made in quite an opulent style. Ages beautifully.

Kekfrankos / Blaufrankisch doesn't usually do it for me personally. Though I've had a handful of Austrian examples done with low extract whole bunch or carbonic maceration that I thought were really lovely.

So high tannins and low primary fruity notes are perceived as „drier“ as the other way round even with the same residual sugar levels?

Funny, usually with me people then talk about varietals, the usage and ratio of new/old wood or steel and so forth but not about the general dryness of it.

Yep. More often than not that's how non-wine-geek people seem to use or perceive 'dryness' (at least in the UK).

It makes working in a wine shop a bit tricky sometimes, as you then have to gauge someone's level of interest / knowledge, in order to make a guess as to what they actually mean.

 

[cotedupy]

After all this chat I may have to blow the cobwebs away later by cracking this, which is a very interesting wine:

Clos des Vignes du Maynes are a superb natural Macconais producer. And notable for the entirely sensible and rational decision of having their best sites planted to Gamay, while the lower cuvees are Pinot Noir.

The bottle above is one of their top wines, but it's a little different... As far as I know the vineyard is the oldest recorded in the world, in that it has been continually under vine since 910 AD, for most of which it belonged to a monastery. The wine that CdVdM make from it now is an attempt to emulate the kind of wines that might have been made from the same vineyard 1000+ years ago. A roughly equal part, co-fermented field blend of Chardonnay, Pinot and Gamay, and consequently a much lighter colour than the pic above suggests - more like a dark rose.

It's very small production, and tightly allocated, so I haven't drunk it all that often. But at its best 'Cuvee 910' is ethereal, it shimmers and dances. However the last bottle I had (a magnum of 2015 iirc) was stripped by brett, so crossing my fingers for this 2021!

 

[Multum in parvo]

After all this chat I may have to blow the cobwebs away later by cracking this, which is a very interesting wine:

View attachment 1722158


Clos des Vignes du Maynes are a superb natural Macconais producer. And notable for the entirely sensible and rational decision of having their best sites planted to Gamay, while the lower cuvees are Pinot Noir.

The one above is one of their top wines, but it's a little different... As far as I know the vineyard is the oldest recorded in the world, in that it has been continually under vine since 910 AD, for most of which it belonged to a monastery. The wine that CdVdM make from it now is an attempt to emulate the kind of wines that might have been made from the same vineyard 1000+ years ago. A roughly equal part, co-fermented field blend of Chardonnay, Pinot and Gamay.

It's very small production, and tightly allocated, so I haven't drunk it all that often. But at its best 'Cuvee 910' is ethereal, it shimmers and dances. However the last bottle I had (a magnum of 2015 iirc) was stripped by brett, so crossing my fingers for this 2021.

It's also a much lighter colour than the pic above suggests - like a dark rose.

Nice we do the co-fermented field blends here as well but I guess they send you to the gallows if it’s red and white varietals together

 

[cotedupy]

usually with me people then talk about varietals

p.s. I'm afraid you now owe 1 euro to my: 'Misuse of the Word Varietal' jar. I realise you are probably writing in a second language, but the rules apply to everyone, and unfortunately no allowances can be made.

'Varietal' is an adjective. A varietal wine is one made from a single grape variety.


(Though I seem nice online, in real life I'm actually a pedantic *** hole. )

 

[Multum in parvo]

p.s. I'm afraid you now owe 1 euro to my: 'Misuse of the Word Varietal' jar. I realise you are probably writing in a second language, but the rules apply to everyone, and unfortunately no allowances can be made.

'Varietal' is an adjective. A varietal wine is one made from a single grape variety.


(Though I seem nice online, in real life I'm actually a pedantic *** hole. )

And right you are, it seems to mean „sortenrein“ not „Sorte“ in German although some wine regions seem to use it at least for marketing purposes as a noun as well (Australia, US?).

Varietal - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Edit:

And now I’m puzzled

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/varietal#:~:text=Meaning%20of%20varietal%20in%20English&text=a%20type%20of%20grape%20that,quarter%20of%20Argentina's%20wine%20exports.

 

[cotedupy]

although some wine regions seem to use it at least for marketing purposes as a noun as well (Australia, US?).

Indeed they do.

Which is why at the next big Australian or US wine trade tasting in London I will be taking my jar along, and using the proceeds to buy my own body weight in cocaine before retiring to a private island with DRC on tap.

And now I’m puzzled

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/varietal#:~:text=Meaning%20of%20varietal%20in%20English&text=a%20type%20of%20grape%20that,quarter%20of%20Argentina's%20wine%20exports.

Don't trust 'em! Used correctly the words aren't interchangeable:

What's the difference between a variety and a varietal?

Dr. Vinny, Wine Spectator's expert, the difference between a grape "variety" and a "varietal."

www.winespectator.com

Though tbh - 'varietal' is now used so often that it's only the worst kind of pedant (i.e. me) that would point it out.

 

[Doc4]

... find out what you like to drink, and how much (if any) cellaring will actually improve it ... to your tastes. (EG: Bordeaux is famous for its ageing qualities, but some drinkers much prefer the younger wines to the well-aged.)

One other general thing I would say, which may be slightly controversial... If you're relatively new to posh wine and looking for stuff for longer term cellaring: Don't buy the wines you like to drink.

Our statements may seem to be at odds to each other. But dig a little deeper and you will see (I think) that we are really on the same track in many ways.

Not all wines are meant to be cellared, and most of those that are will benefit from a few years rather than a few decades. So just sticking whatever wine you like in the cellar for 20 years will likely be a disappointing process when you finally come to drink it.

But in general, as people get more sucked into the world of wine their palates tend to change. Moving away from big, lush, immediately appealing wines, and toward lighter, more elegant styles and regions that may have seemed austere at first.

This "changing palate" thing ... good point, by the way ... is perhaps where cotedupy and I were on different wavelengths (and that's mostly because I didn't think of the issue and he did.)

So to some extent, someone just starting out with a wine cellar and new to "aged wine" needs to figure out what he likes in terms of aged wine and focus on that instead of what he dislikes. So, find ways to try old, well-aged wines that improve with age and see what you like and don't like.

But ...

... but ... also just buy "good wine" that ages well as an act of faith and hope for the best. Because if you actually get good advice on what "good wine" is, and if you actually stick with this wine cellaring thing for a decade or two, and if you keep approaching this thing with an open mind and an intrigued palate ... lot of "if"s I guess ... eventually you will be pleased with the choices you made a couple decades ago.

 

[cotedupy]

Our statements may seem to be at odds to each other. But dig a little deeper and you will see (I think) that we are really on the same track in many ways.

Haha... yep indeed. Obviously I was being a little bit deliberately controversial/provocative with the opening statement. And you've correctly read past that and intuited what I was actually getting at.

I'm certainly very much of the 'drink what you like to drink and don't let people tell you otherwise' school. Just that I know quite a few people who've fallen quite deep into the fine wine rabbit hole, and ended up with a lot of quite expensive wine bought in the early days that they don't have much time for any more. And it's almost always because their tastes have moved away from 'bigger' styles, and because wines like that often don't age very well.

TBH though it sounds like OP is on a pretty decent track already. White Burg, Champagne, Napa Cab*, N Rhone... nothing to argue with there in my book!

---

and if you keep approaching this thing with an open mind and an intrigued palate

At the end of the day ^this^ is probably the most important point.

Whilst I would be buying the classics now (if I could afford them in any quantity) before climates change too much, that same changing climate is going to create new classics from new regions. Taste as much as you can, be ahead of the wave.

(The Finger Lakes is another good US example. The potential for Riesling and sparkling wine in New York state is sky-high).

---




* I actually have quite a big soft spot for new world Cab. Which is probably just about the least trendy opinion going in hipster London wine circles, but meh... sometimes you just want something that tastes nice.

 

[Doc4]

And it's almost always because their tastes have moved

"What sort of wines, that I don't even know about today, will I be most interested in 20 years from now?"

It's kind of like putting together your music playlist (I would say CD collection but I'm old) in your mid-20s that you will listen to in your 40s and 50s.

Good luck with that!

Whilst I would be buying the classics now (if I could afford them in any quantity)

I would love to drink a case of Latour every year for the rest of my life. But it'll never happen.

As much as I dislike the "points out of 100" system, it helps illustrate a point: I'd rather drink a case of $30 90-point wines than one $360 bottle of 97 point wine. You get almost a thousand more "points" for the same amount of money ...

I actually have quite a big soft spot for new world Cab. Which is probably just about the least trendy opinion going in hipster London wine circles, but meh... sometimes you just want something that tastes nice.

Ah, like Rumpole and his Chateau Thames Embankment!

 

[FL shaver]

Pride has excellent cab franc. Hard to find outside of the winery and restaurants. Was Jay Hebert around during your tour? Great guy… Pride is a perfect example of mountian fruit.

Little known fact look at who Titus makes wine for. A hidden gem in Napa.

Our tour was given by a guy named Jay. Not sure of his last name. He was tasked with pushing me through the cellars in a wheelchair. Great guy for sure!

 

[Dtownvino]

Our tour was given by a guy named Jay. Not sure of his last name. He was tasked with pushing me through the cellars in a wheelchair. Great guy for sure!

Jay is an awesome guy and he also loves cab franc… you got the right man!

 

[Tirvine]

Haha... yep indeed. Obviously I was being a little bit deliberately controversial/provocative with the opening statement. And you've correctly read past that and intuited what I was actually getting at.

I'm certainly very much of the 'drink what you like to drink and don't let people tell you otherwise' school. Just that I know quite a few people who've fallen quite deep into the fine wine rabbit hole, and ended up with a lot of quite expensive wine bought in the early days that they don't have much time for any more. And it's almost always because their tastes have moved away from 'bigger' styles, and because wines like that often don't age very well.

TBH though it sounds like OP is on a pretty decent track already. White Burg, Champagne, Napa Cab*, N Rhone... nothing to argue with there in my book!

---



At the end of the day ^this^ is probably the most important point.

Whilst I would be buying the classics now (if I could afford them in any quantity) before climates change too much, that same changing climate is going to create new classics from new regions. Taste as much as you can, be ahead of the wave.

(The Finger Lakes is another good US example. The potential for Riesling and sparkling wine in New York state is sky-high).

---




* I actually have quite a big soft spot for new world Cab. Which is probably just about the least trendy opinion going in hipster London wine circles, but meh... sometimes you just want something that tastes nice.

A few years back I picked up a lower end (not Georges de Latour or Rutherford) BV Napa Cabernet and left it in the wine fridge for ten years. It was a small but very worthwhile experiment. It was exceptionally good, far better than its siblings drunk young and actually better than most pricier Cabernets drunk young. I too have that soft spot. I will, however, confess to loving the more austere style that was common in Napa back in the 1960s. There are still a few wineries which stick more or less to that style. Clos du Val is a favorite in that regard.

 

[Multum in parvo]

So Oli @cotedupy 100% Gamay 2021 vintage - what to expect and when to drink?