Figuring out the Tsushima Black-Ocean

[Bayamontate]

I can't even generate a mental image for this.

Those who have met me personally understand my gift with words, I just hope you get the point.

 

[Bayamontate]

What do you think it brings to the table the asano/Mikawa naguras don't?

From my experience, sensitivity to pressure and unpredictability with how and when it breaks down. Maybe this is why Iwasaki didn't them, again, who knows. The latter may seem to be an unwanted characteristic but I rather enjoy it, it keeps me on my toes and in tune with tells, e.g. suction, undercut, squeaks etc.

 

[Bayamontate]

Steve, you will also start to notice that TBN reacts positively to certain razors and steel. DDs, CMons and other Solingen razors take on pushed Coticule-like edges. I agree with Gamma on this, the edges however differ greatly than those honed on Suitas which are also Coticule-like but smoother.

 

[Chaloney]

Yes, thanks for the interesting post, Bayamonte. I'm new to jnats, but I've been wondering more and more why asanos are so highly touted when there's so many other options for a progression (aoto, chu, Tsushima, ? Others), many of which are cheaper and will last much longer. I have an aoto and a tomo that work nicely as a progression and I've been considering that down the road I might get a Tsushima to hopefully add some refinement (or just to play with .

 

[Bayamontate]

These stamps are simply a form of authentication, they are a verification that they are what they’re supposed to be, nothing more. Do some of these nagura suck? Of course they do, it’s a natural product. Sakamoto-san used to test and stamp only nagura he deemed worthy. He inherited the stamps from Asano and was charged with making sure that only true Mikawa Nagura were recognized as such. This whole thing is a free for all right now because of the depleted stock of these nagura.
Discarded Mikawa stones are not stamped but yet sold, While these unstamped nagura are not officially recognized some are of very good quality. I have several non-Asano stamped Mikawa Shiro nagura namely a Spotted Botan and a ultra-fine Tenyjou that provide excellent edges. I do recommended you go with Asano stamped stuff initially until you can determine what’s what, then you can make informed decisions on purchasing non-stamped nagura.

 

[Steve56]

Thanks everyone, the recent posts are helpful. I got my nagura from Takeshi, and he said it was a little harder and finer than a lot of them. It slurries slowly on hard stones.

My usual pre-finisher is very good so I don't know if it's better than that, but on an ultra hard Ozuku, I can cut hair cleanly with HHT after the TBN, and that's what I shoot for before the finisher.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Brooksie967]

A good read so far. Thanks guys.

 

[oakeshott]

From my experience, sensitivity to pressure and unpredictability with how and when it breaks down. Maybe this is why Iwasaki didn't them, again, who knows. The latter may seem to be an unwanted characteristic but I rather enjoy it, it keeps me on my toes and in tune with tells, e.g. suction, undercut, squeaks etc.

Yes! This is one of the unusual things about the stone. It's kind of "noisy". I don't mean that it's loud, though at times it is, but rather that there's a lot of feedback going on. Different kinds of feedback that are new to me. If you're old enough to have watched TV with an antenna and gotten bad reception, then you'll know the phenomena of lots of noise in the video signal. As your eyes/brain adjust, they compensate for the noise and you make sense of the image. I haven't made sense of it yet.

Just wanted to add that it did seem to behave differently with the Heljestrand than with the Sheffield. Very differently. It wasn't subtle at all. The sheffield also gave a great shave and the swede less so. Can't blame the TSB for that as it was my post Chosera stone and there were a bunch of nagura after that. Still, the two razor felt like different beasts on the TSB brick.

 

[Steve56]

Noisiness can be the result of the razor grind. I find hollow or "singing" (growling is a better term except for the ad department) make quite different sounds in stones and strops.

i have to question how different stones/naguras are on different steels, etc. We are a detail obsessed group, but I have to go back to what Jarrod Connerty (The Superior Shave) said, "rub razor on rock, rub razor on leather, shave".

Maybe we make things more complicated than they really are?

Cheers, Steve

 

[oakeshott]

Noisiness can be the result of the razor grind. I find hollow or "singing" (growling is a better term except for the ad department) make quite different sounds in stones and strops.

i have to question how different stones/naguras are on different steels, etc. We are a detail obsessed group, but I have to go back to what Jarrod Connerty (The Superior Shave) said, "rub razor on rock, rub razor on leather, shave".

Maybe we make things more complicated than they really are?

Cheers, Steve

Steve,

Well, I think Jarrod's point is that it all comes down to rubbing the rock and he's right. You're also right saying we make things more complicated, but that's the inevitable result of understanding. By way of example, think of Fermat's last theorem. Very simple theorem to express, but the proof that Andrew Wiles came up with centuries later is impossibly complex.

I don't find it hard to believe that different steels will react differently. Many years ago my work meant that I spoke weekly with a metallurgist about complicated metal failure issues. The wide degree of differences between steels may not be visible to the eye but occur at the microscopic level where you can see tremendous variability in the way carbides are dispersed or even formed. Add into this the property changing impact of alloys and the reaction of a piece of steel to different types/sizes/shapes of grit is a perfectly reasonable proposition.

But in the end, we have to stop philosophizing and rub that rock.
mark

p.s. I think you might be right about the grinds being the cause of the different noises. Hadn't thought about that. The TSB I have though was still noisier with both razors than any of my other rocks. I liked it though. Reminds me of how my dog makes noise when I rub her ears. The same noise that when I make it when my wife rubs my feet causes her to quit in disgust. Sorry, TMI.

 

[Steve56]

Oh, no argument stones sound different regardless of the razor grind.

But as far as the grind goes, strop a full hollow and a wedge on a coarse weave canvas like the Kanayama, and I think you won't argue about the grind.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Gamma]

they are noisy, that's part of their charm. Yeah - grind will affect the audible feedback but most blades have more 'sound' on these stones most of the time. Pressure and slurry density factor in too.

I may have mentoned that the TBN is sorta slow, so the Swede - having harder steel, would take a lot more work to get to the same spot.
Sounds like you're on the way to knowing a new friend. Sometimes - it takes time.

 

[Steve56]

Yep, I think I like it.

Cheers, Steve

 

[oakeshott]

UPDATE:

So I've limited the variables in my use of the TSB by sticking with the Nagura stone only and using it in a progression with other nagura and not using the big TSB bench size stone. I've been getting great edges, but here's the thing, I'm using it before not after my Botan. It seems to be less fine than the Botan Nagura I have, but that could be a mistake on my part and I still plan some more playing with it.

 

[buca3152]

I have used it in the past with good results. I personally prefer a suita for the pre work. I havent spent enough time on it though, so Im not the guy to ask I use it very rarely. As was said it is noisy and scratchy sounding. Not my favorite thats for sure.

 

[Steve56]

I'm using a TBN as a slurry stone, and it was advertised by Takeshi as harder and finer than they usually are. He described it as about as fine as coma, and that's true as far as the 1 TBN and 1 coma I have. The slurry it produces is not scratchy feeling and breaks down super smooth.

Cheers, Steve

 

[oakeshott]

I have used it in the past with good results. I personally prefer a suita for the pre work. I havent spent enough time on it though, so Im not the guy to ask I use it very rarely. As was said it is noisy and scratchy sounding. Not my favorite thats for sure.

It gets very smooth with use though. I have trouble raising slurry, for instance, with the nagura on a very hard, smooth Nak. Asagi.

I'm using a TBN as a slurry stone, and it was advertised by Takeshi as harder and finer than they usually are. He described it as about as fine as coma, and that's true as far as the 1 TBN and 1 coma I have. The slurry it produces is not scratchy feeling and breaks down super smooth.

Cheers, Steve

Really? I'm fairly sure that's not the case with mine based on my earliest experiences, but it would be interesting to test. Steve, have you tried it on either side of the Koma in a progression? If so, what results did you get?

 

[buca3152]

Hello I was talking about the tb as main stone not the nagura or tomo.

 

[RogarTailer]

I first used TBN as the final nagura on all my finishers and shaved off of all them. This worked really well, I could definitely, without question shave off TBN when used as a final nagura before stropping.

It's been seven years ago. I read a lot of conflicting news about this nagura. Many use it as an intermediate stone but others claim that it is able to finish very accurately and produces very sharp edges.
Your experience as the last nagura?

 

[LJS]

They are not too expensive so you might just want to try one. My opinion is it is more mid range but still pretty fine.