Double-beveled near-wedge. How do I make it single-beveled?

[thanks]

I received a French wedge with a double bevel months back that is a fine shaver. It still holds it's original edge, but it's not as smooth as it could be. I'd like to fix this on my coti, but I don't want to use two layers of tape. In fact, I don't want to use any tape. It's extremely frustrating to me trying to get the tape on a wedge perfect so I don't mess it up. I'd rather just take the blade to stone and do a quick touch-up if need be.

What's the best way to go about doing this? I am not the best at bevel setting or serious bevel work, and I only have a coticule with slurry + thuringian in my honing arsenal after I've sold my Norton set. Is this something that requires a complete bevel reset?

 

[Disburden]

You have to hone it until the bevel you have is completely gone and replaced by a new bevel.

Now since you have limited stones, this may take you a while, it depends on the ones you have (coticule). I always keep a synthetic bevel setting around (Dmt1200, naniwa 1K, etc) for these and other situations.

 

[LarryAndro]

I find near wedges hard to hone. With no fake humility, I am reluctant to mention how I hone them, as I am sure my method is not perfect. But...

I hone near wedges in a straightforward way, with no tape, and do my best to bring them to shave readiness. This often works. With some near wedges, especially really old ones, it seems I can hone all day long and it gets close. But, never does quite get sharp enough.

For these knothead razors, (for it is not my fault!), I do something a bit like taping. I will call it faux taping to make it sound fancy.

My last few hones are the 8K and then 12K. After honing on the 12K, diamond on felt and leather to no avail, I will drop back to the 8K and start my faux taping. I rehone on the 8k with no tape, but with the spine lifted slightly. I hone very lightly. The spine might not even be on the hone, but is close to the hone or on the hone; the pressure on the spine is so slight that I am not even sure sometimes if there is contact.

What I am doing is "taping" the spine by rotating the blade on its axis. However, in all actuality the "tape" or distance from the spine to the hone is a fraction of the width of electrical tape. This takes some practice.

I hone very, very lightly. Typically, with a rolling stroke. After the 8K I move on to the 12K using the same technique. Then, diamond on felt. Finally, the leather strop.

On the leather strop, I let it sag, maybe a deflection of 2 or 3 inches in the middle. And, I still strop very, very lightly. And, I strop more than I would typically strop a razor. Lighter, but more.

The job gets done. The razor gets shave ready. But, I keep thinking there must be a better way. I think it is better than taping. But, who knows!

 

[Troggie]

I personally have not had much success without taping wedges/near wedges. Mainly because I am not patient enough to hone those long enough without tape to get it shave ready.

 

[DavyRay]

I find near wedges hard to hone. With no fake humility, I am reluctant to mention how I hone them, as I am sure my method is not perfect. But...

I hone near wedges in a straightforward way, with no tape, and do my best to bring them to shave readiness. This often works. With some near wedges, especially really old ones, it seems I can hone all day long and it gets close. But, never does quite get sharp enough.

For these knothead razors, (for it is not my fault!), I do something a bit like taping. I will call it faux taping to make it sound fancy.

My last few hones are the 8K and then 12K. After honing on the 12K, diamond on felt and leather to no avail, I will drop back to the 8K and start my faux taping. I rehone on the 8k with no tape, but with the spine lifted slightly. I hone very lightly. The spine might not even be on the hone, but is close to the hone or on the hone; the pressure on the spine is so slight that I am not even sure sometimes if there is contact.

What I am doing is "taping" the spine by rotating the blade on its axis. However, in all actuality the "tape" or distance from the spine to the hone is a fraction of the width of electrical tape. This takes some practice.

I hone very, very lightly. Typically, with a rolling stroke. After the 8K I move on to the 12K using the same technique. Then, diamond on felt. Finally, the leather strop.

On the leather strop, I let it sag, maybe a deflection of 2 or 3 inches in the middle. And, I still strop very, very lightly. And, I strop more than I would typically strop a razor. Lighter, but more.

The job gets done. The razor gets shave ready. But, I keep thinking there must be a better way. I think it is better than taping. But, who knows!

My reaction to this is:

Don't try this at home, kids!

I really think this is way beyond most of us. How many years experience do you have? I tried something like this to get my kamisori sharp without removing too much metal. It was something I tried once, but do not plan to repeat. I think I could easily wobble the angle just a bit, and it would take a belt sander to fix.

 

[SliceOfLife]

True wedges are pretty rare. Near Wedges aren't so bad, but honing a true wedge without tape takes a long time. Physics and my experience both suggest several dozens if not hundreds of times as long as a hollow ground razor going through the same stages.

Firstly, removing the tape bevel... this is quite literally regrinding the razor. Draw yourself a profile of the razor (like in the Henckels grind chart) and include the double bevel in the picture. You'll see the problem. You are removing a MASSIVE amount of material to correct for the TINY amount that was removed due to taped honing. I don't even attempt this by hand honing anymore. A belt sander is the only way I will ever tackle this job.

Secondly, the honing itself. Your entire razor is now a bevel. A hollow ground bevel seems to vary from <1mm to maybe 4mm on a big fat heavy razor. Let's say you've got a 8/8 wedge. That's anywhere from six to a few dozen times the surface area on the hone at once. And well, we should BE so lucky that the decrease in abrasion rate is linear to that ratio... we aren't. Not even close. I'd say I spent at LEAST 50x as long on the last full wedge I honed vs a hollow, and it was only a 6/8 and it had a hollow near the spine for decoration, making the contact area only about 5-10x what a hollow ground would have had. And I used some not insignificant pressure though out (pressure can help compensate, depending on what hones you use, but it complicates things and requires a good pair of hands).

Getting a full wedge from chipped (or just dull) to shave ready without tape (or faux tape as Larry does) is a painfully slow process. Does anyone regularly do it? I thought I was pretty insanely die hard about not taping, and I've only gone through that pain about a half dozen times.

 

[LarryAndro]

True wedges are pretty rare. Near Wedges aren't so bad...

Your answer on wedges was a word of art! Thanks.

Would you tell us how you hone near wedges? Tape or no tape, etc.

 

[mainaman]

you do not have to have the tape PERFECT to get the result.
As far as lifting the blade while honing , that requires a ton of experience, and is essentially putting a microbevel at the end, this can be done with an extra later of tape if needed.

 

[Woodash]

I have no problem with tape - especially on a wedge. I don't know if this is the most elegant or artistic way to go, but it works for me.

I have a Reynolds that is a true wedge as far as I can tell. I started out with no tape and began getting too much hone wear on the low-grit stones. I then dropped back and used 2 layers of tape and had really good luck - in fact, it may be my favorite shaver (at least for today!).

To address the OP's question, I'm not sure what you mean by "It's extremely frustrating to me trying to get the tape on a wedge perfect so I don't mess it up." I assume you mean the number of layers of tape. If that's the case, maybe you could use the old magic marker trick.

 

[thanks]

I guess the situation is as I feared but suspected. I'll just apply the two layers of tape, and try to get them as even as possible. I just didn't want to mess up the second bevel.

To address the OP's question, I'm not sure what you mean by "It's extremely frustrating to me trying to get the tape on a wedge perfect so I don't mess it up." I assume you mean the number of layers of tape. If that's the case, maybe you could use the old magic marker trick.

I'm referring to the evenness of the tape on both sides of the razor. You're effectively creating the spine with tape on a wedge or near wedge, and it being even is important.

I hope Bart doesn't mind me linking to this picture. It's from this page of his site; http://coticule.be/wedges.html

 

[Woodash]

^ I don't see how symmetric distribution of the tape would matter. As long as the tape extends off the spine onto the flat of the wedge, the honed/bevel angle on either side should be the same.

 

[mainaman]

I guess the situation is as I feared but suspected. I'll just apply the two layers of tape, and try to get them as even as possible. I just didn't want to mess up the second bevel.



I'm referring to the evenness of the tape on both sides of the razor. You're effectively creating the spine with tape on a wedge or near wedge, and it being even is important.

I hope Bart doesn't mind me linking to this picture. It's from this page of his site; http://coticule.be/wedges.html

have you tried two separate pieces of tape on each side?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Your answer on wedges was a word of art! Thanks.

Would you tell us how you hone near wedges? Tape or no tape, etc.

Like any hollow grind, but with a lot more passes. It's sort of a "If you think near wedges are bad..." kind of story. I've only ever used tape on full wedges, and I wasn't happy with the results. It was taking 3+ layers to get the speed increase I felt was necessary, and at that point the bevel was developing pretty ugly because my rough grit stones would rip at the tape, rather than wearing it evenly. Rather than find a solution, I just bit the bullet and went back to honing them without tape (and avoiding them when possible).

 

[azmark]

Anything near wedge I start with tape and end with two layers. I don't have many near wedges but it saved a lot of time using coticules.

 

[thanks]

^ I don't see how symmetric distribution of the tape would matter. As long as the tape extends off the spine onto the flat of the wedge, the honed/bevel angle on either side should be the same.

Looking at the diagram and thinking about it doesn't seem to make too much of a difference. For some reason I had it in my head that the tape being uneven would affect the angle the blade touched stone. Well I put on the tape without worrying about it being perfect, and gave it about 50 laps on my coti. I await a test shave tomorrow, but it seems to have brought the edge back.

have you tried two separate pieces of tape on each side?

This is a good idea, but I think it might be more trouble for me!

Also, Larry and Ian, you two both seem to have some impressive methods!

 

[Woodash]

Well I put on the tape without worrying about it being perfect, and gave it about 50 laps on my coti. I await a test shave tomorrow, but it seems to have brought the edge back.

Glad it worked out.

 

[benb]

I have an old Wostenholm wedge (4/8 I think, never measured it). Spyderco fine and ultrafine stones got it never quite sharp enough, no matter how long I sharpened it for. It would shave, but it pulled hairs a bit too much. One day I wrapped the spine in 5 pieces of electrical tape and put that baby back to the ultrafine. The thing cuts as though through butter. I cannot imagine not using tape to sharpen my Wosty. "Faux tape" seems way too difficult and unnecessary. I'm not steady or practiced enough to attempt it. Also, in my experience I don't see how uneven taping could be an issue.

BTW Spyderco hones are great, though I never had the luxury of owning any eschers or coticules etc. But I don't feel like I'm missing out.

 

[thanks]

The original reason I asked if I could turn this one into a single beveled razor, is that my only other wedge I've kept around was honed without tape, and carries an excellent edge.

Before anyone asks, it was purchased this way. I've shaved with it many many times, and it shows no signs of edge deterioration.