I just had a quick question about honing stones. I know that the lower grit stones establish the bevel, the around 8000g you're polishing the bevel, but when you use stones with even higher grits, are you just polishing the edge like stropping or are you establishing a finer, sharper, edge on the razor?
Do finishing stones make the blade sharper?
- Thread starter gull
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I say no. All the "sharpness" comes from the bevel setting/early hones. The high grit stuff just helps smooth out and increase comfort. It's not quite as black and white as that, but I'd say about 95% like that.
I say yes because I have an objective method for measuring sharpness. I count the hours of BBS before I feel stubble, the longer the BBS, the sharper the blade. Every time I have gone to a finer hone the blade is sharper, at least for the first shave. The catch is that, due to the nature of the steel, some razors can hold a sharper edge than others and, if the edge is too fine, too sharp, for the steel, it quickly degrades down to its "normal" sharpness.
Theres a distinct difference in the closeness I get from a shave off my Naniwa 12000 JIS stone and my Jnat (ungodly high grit). I have 18+ hr shaves off my Jnat. I get about eight to ten hour shaves off the naniwa. The difference there is sharpness. Now are we actually thinning the edge or just removing imperfections (hills) at that point? It doesn't matter, both make the blade sharper.
I guess I need to re- modify my previous statement based on the responses above.
"sharpness" is a difficult term to quantify in my opinion. I think all the "sharpness is set at the low grits, as I said before. However I think that the cutting effectiveness is improved by the higher grit hones. My HHT goes from nice coming off the 1200, to super silent and effortless after finishing refining the edge.
Perhaps it is my semantics, but I wouldn't deem it any physically sharper, but rather more refined, and thus more effective.
"sharpness" is a difficult term to quantify in my opinion. I think all the "sharpness is set at the low grits, as I said before. However I think that the cutting effectiveness is improved by the higher grit hones. My HHT goes from nice coming off the 1200, to super silent and effortless after finishing refining the edge.
Perhaps it is my semantics, but I wouldn't deem it any physically sharper, but rather more refined, and thus more effective.
I say yes because even though the time between shaves may not vary much between great and off the charts there is a difference in the feel of the incoming stubble. Some razors just make the stubble have an edge that feels over the top clean cut.
you forget to factor in such variables as steel, temper, grind, who honed the razor, what stone was used to finish the edge. Do not forget that two different people might like the same edge differently.
I'd also say that the bulk of the keeness comes from bevel set, but finishing - particularly with slurry on a Jnat - definately adds to the edge sharpness. Metal is coming off. That ain't just polishing.
In my opinion a blade should gain keenness till the very end of the sharpening, otherwise it makes no sense to use a particular sharpening stone. I can think of only 4 variables that could have an influence on the performance of an edge.
1. the presence of (micro) serrations. I don't think it's applicable to shaving, because the presence of any microscopic saw teeth makes a razor too aggressive on the skin. Nonetheless, at lower grits, they are present. And they lend an edge extra performance, because the cutting force is concentrated at the tips of the teeth, instead of spread evenly along the wider contact zone of a smooth edge. It explains why a serrated knife cuts tomatoes so well, and it also explains why a maxed out 1K edge can pop a hanging hair.
2. the bevel angle. A lean wedge will force its way in easier than an obtuser one. But bevel angle is more or less factory set on razors, so this is of not much practical use. There is also an effect on the cutting stresses an edge can handle, hence the possibilities for diminishing the bevel angle on a razor are rather limited.
3. glide. A beard hair has a maximum diameter of 180 micron. Hence the first 180 micron of the edge must be able to glide through the hair with as less resistance as possible. After that, the hair is severed and it has no further influence. It is not sure that the smoothest bevel surface offers the best glide. Maybe an undulating surface, as a sort of micro-copy of the surface that can be found on some high end machine tables, offers additional performance. But it's hard to predict how 2 undulating bevel surfaces would meet at the very edge.
At any rate, I think that this glide factor only offers a minor influence. On a tree axe, for instance, it is of much more importance, because the axe doesn't sever a tree in one blow. It needs to penetrate as deep into the wood as possible.
That is not an issue while shaving.
4. keenness. How thin is the line at which both bevel faces meet? That is very much defined by how finely a hone can define that line. Fast cutting sharpening stones that leave deep grooves in the steel will obviously define a less fine line than slow cutting hones that leave only very shallow grooves. Try sanding a very sharp point on a pencil with coarse sandpaper. It won't work, although easing up on pressure, hence making shallower scratches, will get you further.
I am in the habit of measuring the keenness of my edges with aid of the HHT. And I have always noticed that the HHT very clearly keeps improving all the way till I stop honing. And then some, after I strop the edge.
So there's my answer. But I haven't spoken about smoothness. Does any one really believe that a steel object, polished higher than 1K sandpaper, is going to harm your skin more or less, by polishing it any further or not? I am convinced that it is not the level of polish on the bevel faces that defines whether we consider a razor "smooth" or not. It is the keenness of the cut. If it's not keen enough, there will be a pulling sensation on the whiskers. While not very agreeable, that doesn't do harm as such. But everything else we've ever cut in our lives, always invited us to push harder when it didn't cut so well. And that is what we almost subconsciously do when a razor pulls a bit. Yet we can't push harder against the hairs without putting more pressure on our skin. And that's where we'll start to irritate ourselves with sub-par edges. Not smooth enough, we'll call it. While it should probably be: "not keen enough".
On the other end of the spectrum, it is possible to make an edge so keen that it starts to remove the outer layer of our skin, together with the effortlessly shaved whiskers. Sure, it depends on the shaving angle and how lightly one wields the blade, but still I insist that a razor can be too sharp. "Harsh", we'll call it, and it is usually achieved with extremely fine abrasives, such as 0.25 micron diamond spray. Or the finest grit lapping film. In that respect, a good finisher is one that suits your skin, likes to shave your beard hairs and agrees with your shaving style and skills. That is a different set of parameters for each individual.
Kind regards,
Bart.
1. the presence of (micro) serrations. I don't think it's applicable to shaving, because the presence of any microscopic saw teeth makes a razor too aggressive on the skin. Nonetheless, at lower grits, they are present. And they lend an edge extra performance, because the cutting force is concentrated at the tips of the teeth, instead of spread evenly along the wider contact zone of a smooth edge. It explains why a serrated knife cuts tomatoes so well, and it also explains why a maxed out 1K edge can pop a hanging hair.
2. the bevel angle. A lean wedge will force its way in easier than an obtuser one. But bevel angle is more or less factory set on razors, so this is of not much practical use. There is also an effect on the cutting stresses an edge can handle, hence the possibilities for diminishing the bevel angle on a razor are rather limited.
3. glide. A beard hair has a maximum diameter of 180 micron. Hence the first 180 micron of the edge must be able to glide through the hair with as less resistance as possible. After that, the hair is severed and it has no further influence. It is not sure that the smoothest bevel surface offers the best glide. Maybe an undulating surface, as a sort of micro-copy of the surface that can be found on some high end machine tables, offers additional performance. But it's hard to predict how 2 undulating bevel surfaces would meet at the very edge.
At any rate, I think that this glide factor only offers a minor influence. On a tree axe, for instance, it is of much more importance, because the axe doesn't sever a tree in one blow. It needs to penetrate as deep into the wood as possible.
That is not an issue while shaving.
4. keenness. How thin is the line at which both bevel faces meet? That is very much defined by how finely a hone can define that line. Fast cutting sharpening stones that leave deep grooves in the steel will obviously define a less fine line than slow cutting hones that leave only very shallow grooves. Try sanding a very sharp point on a pencil with coarse sandpaper. It won't work, although easing up on pressure, hence making shallower scratches, will get you further.
I am in the habit of measuring the keenness of my edges with aid of the HHT. And I have always noticed that the HHT very clearly keeps improving all the way till I stop honing. And then some, after I strop the edge.
So there's my answer. But I haven't spoken about smoothness. Does any one really believe that a steel object, polished higher than 1K sandpaper, is going to harm your skin more or less, by polishing it any further or not? I am convinced that it is not the level of polish on the bevel faces that defines whether we consider a razor "smooth" or not. It is the keenness of the cut. If it's not keen enough, there will be a pulling sensation on the whiskers. While not very agreeable, that doesn't do harm as such. But everything else we've ever cut in our lives, always invited us to push harder when it didn't cut so well. And that is what we almost subconsciously do when a razor pulls a bit. Yet we can't push harder against the hairs without putting more pressure on our skin. And that's where we'll start to irritate ourselves with sub-par edges. Not smooth enough, we'll call it. While it should probably be: "not keen enough".
On the other end of the spectrum, it is possible to make an edge so keen that it starts to remove the outer layer of our skin, together with the effortlessly shaved whiskers. Sure, it depends on the shaving angle and how lightly one wields the blade, but still I insist that a razor can be too sharp. "Harsh", we'll call it, and it is usually achieved with extremely fine abrasives, such as 0.25 micron diamond spray. Or the finest grit lapping film. In that respect, a good finisher is one that suits your skin, likes to shave your beard hairs and agrees with your shaving style and skills. That is a different set of parameters for each individual.
Kind regards,
Bart.
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Metal is also removed during polishing, no matter how fine. It's all a question of "how much". Even stropping will remove metal. Again, it's a question of "how much..."
If one has an edge radius of 2µ and one removes 1µ with a aid of a Norton4K, that's a 50% improvement, right?
If one has an edge radius of 0.5µ and one removes 0.1µ (10 times less than in the previous example), with aid of a Naniwa12K, that's still a 20% improvement, by my interpretation.
If we want to reduce this discussion to semantics, at which point are we going to say that a performance gain is not longer being caused by sharpening, but by "polishing". Or does it depend on the tool used to do it?
It's my opinion that the edge radius improves till the very end, and I don't see any reason to change terminology somewhere along the line of that improvement.
Kind regards,
Bart.
Well - that's more or less my point as well. I get sharper even 'polishing' on water and bare hone. And sure - it's a matter of degree.
the difference between a strop and a high-grit hone is ... the grit. The hone has it, and the (unpasted) hone doesn't. So the grit will remove metal, making a sharper edge.
Perhaps "polishing" is a misleading term here, because when we think of "polishing" in a general sense ... polishing my shoes, or an apple ... we think of just "making it shine" without removing any material. Perhaps if you think of "finishing" stones rather than "polishing" stones, it will make more sense.
I'll use a woodwork analogy. Let's say I have a board, and I want one end of it to come together in a sharp point, rather than a square end. The first thing I do is use a saw to cut the corners of the end off, to form the pointy end, in rough. This is "setting the bevel". Then I get out my sandpaper and sand it down, using progressively finer grits, to get a nice smooth, sharp end. This is "finishing" or "polishing" ... but you see I am still removing some material.
(If my two cuts with the saw don't line up to from a triangle, then it'll take me months of sanding to make the edges meet ... pointless, really.)
Well, even a high-grit stone is removing metal, so you could theoretically set a bevel on a 30k grit stone, it's just that you probably don't have weeks or months to hone non-stop 24/7. So, objectively, even a "polishing" stone is sharpening (in that it's removing metal, albeit way more slowly than a lower-grit stone).
I am going to put my foot in it this time, for sure!
Does a finishing stone make a blade sharper? IMHO I think there are basically two components of "sharp"
As the honing process uses finer and finer grits you reach a point where "keenness" stops. Most agree that it is about the 8K point give or take a bit. At this point the steel comes to a point where no matter what you do the tip of the edge will not get finer. Going up in grit is just polishing that is it. Bevel polishing is a very important step to a smooth shave.
Looking at the point where the blade cuts the hair you would see the edge of the blade start to separate (cleave) the shaft of the hair and then the bevels becomes important because they separate the hair using a wedge action. The makers of Double Edge blades had reached a point where they could not get the blade any keener and thus the only improvement was the ability to cut the friction of the bevels. They found out they could cut down the friction of the bevel by putting a layer of Teflon on the bevels and thus the "smoothness" of the modern DE blade. A vast improvement was realized.
I have shaved a lot using 0.1 micron film for the final polishing process and they are wicked sharp but the problem is that diamonds leave such jagged edges on the bevel and at the point. They may be fine grooves but very sharp along the grooves. I was cutting myself all the time no matter how light my touch was and when I started scyping it was like slicing a tomato because of the little jagged edge left by the diamonds.
Enter the J-Nat. Now I was able to polish the bevel and not cause the edge to get "jagged" and the smoothness of the shaves were astounding. There is more to honing than just the size of the grit particle being used for the final polishing of the bevel. With the Natural I am able to control the "keenness" separate from the polish of the bevel which makes for some very interesting shaves.
One last point in all this is that one has to shave for a while to be able to feel the subtleties of differently honed blades. Some people don't care and are happy just getting DGS and some do care. Each position has it good points!
Take care,
Richard
Does a finishing stone make a blade sharper? IMHO I think there are basically two components of "sharp"
- The bevel on each side of the blade are two planes that meet at a point. How fine this point is what I have always understood as "keenness"
- The smoothness of the bevels themselves.
As the honing process uses finer and finer grits you reach a point where "keenness" stops. Most agree that it is about the 8K point give or take a bit. At this point the steel comes to a point where no matter what you do the tip of the edge will not get finer. Going up in grit is just polishing that is it. Bevel polishing is a very important step to a smooth shave.
Looking at the point where the blade cuts the hair you would see the edge of the blade start to separate (cleave) the shaft of the hair and then the bevels becomes important because they separate the hair using a wedge action. The makers of Double Edge blades had reached a point where they could not get the blade any keener and thus the only improvement was the ability to cut the friction of the bevels. They found out they could cut down the friction of the bevel by putting a layer of Teflon on the bevels and thus the "smoothness" of the modern DE blade. A vast improvement was realized.
I have shaved a lot using 0.1 micron film for the final polishing process and they are wicked sharp but the problem is that diamonds leave such jagged edges on the bevel and at the point. They may be fine grooves but very sharp along the grooves. I was cutting myself all the time no matter how light my touch was and when I started scyping it was like slicing a tomato because of the little jagged edge left by the diamonds.
Enter the J-Nat. Now I was able to polish the bevel and not cause the edge to get "jagged" and the smoothness of the shaves were astounding. There is more to honing than just the size of the grit particle being used for the final polishing of the bevel. With the Natural I am able to control the "keenness" separate from the polish of the bevel which makes for some very interesting shaves.
One last point in all this is that one has to shave for a while to be able to feel the subtleties of differently honed blades. Some people don't care and are happy just getting DGS and some do care. Each position has it good points!
Take care,
Richard
I wonder about this...
If you have a honemeister-sharpened blade and a high-grit finishing hone, could you theoretically shave for decades using that blade by following proper daily stropping technique and just refreshing it on the finishing hone every month or so?
Or is there a point that you would need to take it back down to 8k, 4k, etc?
I haven't been straight shaving long enough to know, myself. So far, all of my blades are easily refreshed with a few strokes on my nakayama maruka.
If you have a honemeister-sharpened blade and a high-grit finishing hone, could you theoretically shave for decades using that blade by following proper daily stropping technique and just refreshing it on the finishing hone every month or so?
Or is there a point that you would need to take it back down to 8k, 4k, etc?
I haven't been straight shaving long enough to know, myself. So far, all of my blades are easily refreshed with a few strokes on my nakayama maruka.
This is one of those very basic questions. I would like to hear from a member who has used one straight razor for a long time, to see if this works.
Ideally, a perfect blade would only need good stropping and an occasional touch from a barber hone (or similar finisher) to remain sharp indefinitely.
Chimensch has written that he shaved for 29 years with nothing but a Swaty for touch-ups.
So it's certainly possible, as long as stropping is done properly & no accidents like a bang against the faucet occurs.
You took the words out of my mouth.
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