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Diamond Stones

I was wondering if anyone has had any experience using diamond stones for honing/polishing and could share any insight into them. Are they any different to use than regular water stones?
 
I was wondering if anyone has had any experience using diamond stones for honing/polishing and could share any insight into them. Are they any different to use than regular water stones?
I have tried and failed every time. The time i spent repairing the damage from the DMT would have been better spent using e.g. a 1000 grit stone.
I have even tried Venev vetrified OCB diamond water stones. For me the problem was that the edge seemed perfectly fine, even if i finished on my fool prof Nakayama JNAT. The problem was the the edge did not feel as good on the face, and the edge seemed to fall apart after a few shaves.
i think the problems is that you only need a couple of "rouge" larger diamonds to trash your edge. And the diamonds create plastic deformation beyond what is visible under the microscope. You get excessive strain hardening effects, which can lead to a more brittle edge.
I have not given up yet:) I have been looking at the Naniwa 6000 grit diamond water stone, but it is really expensive.
I am not sure if this offers a better particle distribution than the Venev stones. As i understand, when the grit size gets really small, they can clump together, which creates the deeper scratches. I tried the 8000 grit DMT, but that did not work for me. I have not found a good way to break in this plate yet.
If you get different results, please share your experience. I have not had enough time to experiment yet.

You may also be interested to read the information on scienceofsharp covering this topic.
The Diamond Plate Progression - https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/03/01/the-diamond-plate-progression/
 
Venev stones as far as I know(I have a set I use for.knives) are not made for softer steels like most carbon steel razors. As far as the feel from diamond? I agree 100 percent. I have the full line of dmts but use them for my knives. The razors get the stones. I would use them for edge correction but would stop before the edge apexes and use a stone to finish the bevel
 

Herrenberg

Contributor
Yes, I've done some of this with various diamond things, on harder steels like kamisoris.

Atoma plates: They work well for a lot of people, but not for me so far. Without the sort of feedback I get from stones, I find it hard to tell what is going on, so things come out less even.

Venev stones: They almost worked well, but as others have said, there is a tendency to get chunks broken off that mess up your edge. That made me stop using them for razors. Great for knives, though. Be sure to pay attention to the micron size, not the grit rating, which is on a wildly different scale from other stones.

Naniwa stones: These are awfully nice. The 3000 can break off chunks, but if you mitigate by honing under running water, that really limits the consequences. I have not caught the 6000 doing that. The 6000 does glaze quickly and require refreshing, but I like it.

Nanohone stones: Still exploring these, pretty promising so far. If anything were to break out of the resin, it would tend to end up in one of the holes.

Vitrified diamond stones: These are my favorites for honing. Diamonds don't seem to break off in chunks, or much at all. It seems easier to get results unmarred by roughness. They cost a mint, though, and keeping them flat can be quite an issue. I don't even know how to do it. I just try to use the whole stone when honing.
 
For kitchen knives i use Vitrified diamond stones with asano nagura. This keeps the stone/plate fro loading up, and you get a polished edge with a little bite. Old mixed with new tech.
 

Herrenberg

Contributor
Forgot one other interesting type: metallic-bonded diamond or CBN stones. They're a pain to refresh; you have to soak in ferric chloride, but the advantage for honing is that loose diamonds pretty much never break out of the metal. I've actually finished a razor (except for the pasted balsa strops afterwards) on a 15,000 grit metallic-bonded CBN stone. It worked really well, although it was a challenge because it was an Edge Pro form factor stone, 1" x 6". They're kind of hard to find.
 
I have been looking at the CBN stones for a while. CBN particles look similar to coticule garnets. Do they give you a smooth edge?
 

Herrenberg

Contributor
I have been looking at the CBN stones for a while. CBN particles look similar to coticule garnets. Do they give you a smooth edge?
I have no complaints about the edge, which was excellent, but

I've only done this on one razor
I put the edge through pasted balsa strops at 0.5 micron, 0.25 micron, and 0.1 micron afterwards, so I wasn't shaving off the stone
The razor is different enough from my other razors, especially in being a steel I've never shaved with before, that it's hard to judge
 
Thanks all, looks like I have a lot to go over, and I should probably just grab a 1200 stone first and use the diamond for knives or for truing the stone. I still have some time before the razor gets here and won't need to hit the stones for a while. I purchased a Gold Dollar as well for practice honing. Looks like I'm down a huge rabbit hole... :scared:
 
I have tried and failed every time. The time i spent repairing the damage from the DMT would have been better spent using e.g. a 1000 grit stone.
I have even tried Venev vetrified OCB diamond water stones. For me the problem was that the edge seemed perfectly fine, even if i finished on my fool prof Nakayama JNAT. The problem was the the edge did not feel as good on the face, and the edge seemed to fall apart after a few shaves.
i think the problems is that you only need a couple of "rouge" larger diamonds to trash your edge. And the diamonds create plastic deformation beyond what is visible under the microscope. You get excessive strain hardening effects, which can lead to a more brittle edge.
I have not given up yet:) I have been looking at the Naniwa 6000 grit diamond water stone, but it is really expensive.
I am not sure if this offers a better particle distribution than the Venev stones. As i understand, when the grit size gets really small, they can clump together, which creates the deeper scratches. I tried the 8000 grit DMT, but that did not work for me. I have not found a good way to break in this plate yet.
If you get different results, please share your experience. I have not had enough time to experiment yet.

You may also be interested to read the information on scienceofsharp covering this topic.
The Diamond Plate Progression - https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/03/01/the-diamond-plate-progression/
Interesting link, thanks!

BTW what grit were you using?
 
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Yes, I've done some of this with various diamond things, on harder steels like kamisoris.

Atoma plates: They work well for a lot of people, but not for me so far. Without the sort of feedback I get from stones, I find it hard to tell what is going on, so things come out less even.

Venev stones: They almost worked well, but as others have said, there is a tendency to get chunks broken off that mess up your edge. That made me stop using them for razors. Great for knives, though. Be sure to pay attention to the micron size, not the grit rating, which is on a wildly different scale from other stones.

Naniwa stones: These are awfully nice. The 3000 can break off chunks, but if you mitigate by honing under running water, that really limits the consequences. I have not caught the 6000 doing that. The 6000 does glaze quickly and require refreshing, but I like it.

Nanohone stones: Still exploring these, pretty promising so far. If anything were to break out of the resin, it would tend to end up in one of the holes.

Vitrified diamond stones: These are my favorites for honing. Diamonds don't seem to break off in chunks, or much at all. It seems easier to get results unmarred by roughness. They cost a mint, though, and keeping them flat can be quite an issue. I don't even know how to do it. I just try to use the whole stone when honing.
I bought a DMT, not sure if that's the same as one of the others above. I'll probably try it once and see how it goes.
 
Interesting link, thanks!

BTW what grit were you using?
The highest grit i used was 1200. This was not JIS grit rating. I think it is close to 6000 JIS grit.
The standard plated DMT and atoma plates need to be broken in. This subject is probably covered in a different thread.
 
The highest grit i used was 1200. This was not JIS grit rating. I think it is close to 6000 JIS grit.
The standard plated DMT and atoma plates need to be broken in. This subject is probably covered in a different thread.
Thanks, I'll look for that. I wasn't aware that they had to be broken in.
 
One other thing about the venev stones. They have the 100% diamond concentration which is what I have and the 25% which has a lower concentration of diamonds. The 25% is made for more of a polished mirror finish. I never tried those. It's possible those will work better for razors. Personally I believe eventually these will be the new synthetics once they get all their ducks in a row.
 
I use them for everything but finishing with razors. Clean them regularly and don't overdo the pressure.
Thanks, I'll look for that. I wasn't aware that they had to be broken in.
I have coarse 600 and 1200 Ultra Sharp, then 4k and 8k DMT. all 8x3 continuous. I broke them in using the process specified by Best Sharpening Stones. Absolutely necessary in my view. I also hone on diamond with Keen Kutter and rinse/brush clean them every 50 to 60 laps. And finish on stone or synthetic.

Definitely very, very light pressure, especially on coarse grits. Lately I am mainly a synthetic guy (Pride and Naniwa), but the diamond plates still see plenty of use on vintage restorations of needy edges. Better feel on the synthetics.

Shave tests are my gold standard. I very seldom use even a loupe. HHT is fun, but how well do they shave, how good do they feel, and do the edges last with just diamond pasted balsa, leather, and linen stropping?
 
I have coarse 600 and 1200 Ultra Sharp, then 4k and 8k DMT. all 8x3 continuous. I broke them in using the process specified by Best Sharpening Stones. Absolutely necessary in my view. I also hone on diamond with Keen Kutter and rinse/brush clean them every 50 to 60 laps. And finish on stone or synthetic.

Definitely very, very light pressure, especially on coarse grits. Lately I am mainly a synthetic guy (Pride and Naniwa), but the diamond plates still see plenty of use on vintage restorations of needy edges. Better feel on the synthetics.

Shave tests are my gold standard. I very seldom use even a loupe. HHT is fun, but how well do they shave, how good do they feel, and do the edges last with just diamond pasted balsa, leather, and linen stropping?
Thanks, I'll look into it.

What is HHT? I'm still new to this side of the house so not familiar with all the terminology.
 
Hanging hair test - how well does the edge sever a hanging hair. You can test across the width of the blade, see if the edge is consistent. Of course, hairs vary... I pull longish ones out of the LOTH's hairbrush.

If there is one certainty about SR honing, finishing, stropping, and restoration - it is that the terminology, techniques, and experiences are very personal. I have been fortunate to get to try a number of other's finished edges. That has made me respect my own edges.

But I constantly try new approaches, for my own amusement more than expecting to hit a distinctly new level of edge perfection. I hope you enjoy your experiences!
 
Hanging hair test - how well does the edge sever a hanging hair. You can test across the width of the blade, see if the edge is consistent. Of course, hairs vary... I pull longish ones out of the LOTH's hairbrush.

If there is one certainty about SR honing, finishing, stropping, and restoration - it is that the terminology, techniques, and experiences are very personal. I have been fortunate to get to try a number of other's finished edges. That has made me respect my own edges.

But I constantly try new approaches, for my own amusement more than expecting to hit a distinctly new level of edge perfection. I hope you enjoy your experiences!
Thanks! It seems like this is one part of shaving that has a lot of useful benefits for other parts of life such as keeping tools and knives sharp.
 
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