I love Damascus steel, and have more than one Damascus knife, but I'm wondering if that kind of steel lends itself to usage as a straight razor. I would think that anywhere the whorls cross the bevel, there might be issues, but then, I'm no smith. I've see a few that I'm interested in, but I thought I'd get some input here before sinking money into a Damascus blade that might be better spent on a regular steel blade. I'd be grateful for any input.
Damascus Straight Razors?
- Thread starter powwowdancer
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I have a vintage Fontenille frameback (the "Le Mondain") whose blade is Damascus. That is one sweet shave.
Damascus steel is great for a straight razor.
This is one of my Damascus razors. Made by Gabor Buddel, Germany.
This is one of my Damascus razors. Made by Gabor Buddel, Germany.
I have a Tanaka Kamisori with Damscus clad Blue #2 steel. It's a beast, like 64+ on the rockwell.
All of you know the way to make Damascus steel was lost about 300 years ago I hope.
Stuff sold as 'Damascus' is usually etched wootz steel or pattern welded steel, a lower grade of steel than real Damascus; which is probably the best steel in the world (for blades anyway), just no metalworker has figured out how to make it again.
Thing is there are steels that would be better suited to shaving (a long blade such as a sword has to hold up to more than a simple short razor) flexing and bending as well as slicing through flesh and bone without blunting significantly.
I'd say 'Damascus' razors would be a bit of a dodgy buy (the razor would be good, though it's unethical to claim it's something it isn't) as well as that steel designed for longer blades may not be good in a shorter blade. Ie a katana is a great mix of steels to slice a man in half shoulder to hip, though if you're wet-shaving cutting one down and re-shaping it is probably just needlessly expensive.
Personally I'd do my research and get the best steel for a razor; or for your preference. If you like the look of 'Damascus' steel it can always be etched on after.
Stuff sold as 'Damascus' is usually etched wootz steel or pattern welded steel, a lower grade of steel than real Damascus; which is probably the best steel in the world (for blades anyway), just no metalworker has figured out how to make it again.
Thing is there are steels that would be better suited to shaving (a long blade such as a sword has to hold up to more than a simple short razor) flexing and bending as well as slicing through flesh and bone without blunting significantly.
I'd say 'Damascus' razors would be a bit of a dodgy buy (the razor would be good, though it's unethical to claim it's something it isn't) as well as that steel designed for longer blades may not be good in a shorter blade. Ie a katana is a great mix of steels to slice a man in half shoulder to hip, though if you're wet-shaving cutting one down and re-shaping it is probably just needlessly expensive.
Personally I'd do my research and get the best steel for a razor; or for your preference. If you like the look of 'Damascus' steel it can always be etched on after.
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I think most enthusiasts know about the "lost" Damascus recipe (so to speak). I also think that most understand that the use of the word is more about articulating the "look" of the razor, rather than claiming to be using that "lost" production method.
Personally, I would love a "Damascus" blade at some point, as I find the appearance to be quite beautiful. That being said, I would not be too concerned over the notion that it is not "true" Damascus steel. And I think most others would be of a similar mind.
Personally, I would love a "Damascus" blade at some point, as I find the appearance to be quite beautiful. That being said, I would not be too concerned over the notion that it is not "true" Damascus steel. And I think most others would be of a similar mind.
I'd really like a Damascus, but the price is prohibitive. Mr. Edson makes some wicked looking Damascus blades.
+1 to the post above me. I'd imagine it's mostly aesthetics.
+1 to the post above me. I'd imagine it's mostly aesthetics.
OK.
First, Dr. Juha Perttula first recreated wootz steel around 2000, with quite a few following suit. Second, as compared to modern steels, wootz has no practical advantage. There have been numerous research papers published on this. The damascene pattern in wootz is caused by precipitated carbides forming layers nanotubes. Research has found, however, that a uniform distribution of these carbides is more ideal.
First, Dr. Juha Perttula first recreated wootz steel around 2000, with quite a few following suit. Second, as compared to modern steels, wootz has no practical advantage. There have been numerous research papers published on this. The damascene pattern in wootz is caused by precipitated carbides forming layers nanotubes. Research has found, however, that a uniform distribution of these carbides is more ideal.
Modern damascus (pattern welded) steel made from good quality tool steels and made by a modern master makes for an outstanding shave!
Those are very nice . . .
I was replying with the OP in mind.
In my opinion I'd see any type of folded steel blade inferior to a solid forged steel one since you have at least two different types of steel (and thus the metal will be have different hardness values throughout) which would make honing a bit of a pain in the *** to get an even edge if all you end up doing is wearing off the soft steel and having the harder steel protruding when trying to set a bevel.
High quality etched would be your best bet if you like the aesthetics, but I don't think combination steel would lend itself very well to the large amount of stropping and honing that straight razors need and should only be needed when you want a combination of toughness + flexibility which I would only think to be needed in blades that do plenty of chopping or stabbing.
Simply put combination steel gives you the best of more than one world when it comes to metal and this is great if you are going to me marching through jungle, or going into battle where you'll be cutting armour flesh and bone but straight razors have only one purpose (cutting hair) so the best steel for that (and also befitting of personal comfort and preference) should be selected and used, they need to do their job and do it well. They've been the same (shape changing slightly with fashion and metallurgical technique) for over 300 years, I don't think much changing is needed. However if you like the look of a 'Damascus' finish then get a great razor and find someone to custom etch it for you. Hell get carbon fibre etching and carbon fibre scales, that'd be a funny one.
Seriously though, why haven't they made ceramic straight razors yet? I suppose ceramic is much more brittle than steel and I could see some of the weaker ones snapping under the pressure used to hone them on a thin hone. Obsidian razors would be awesome too (or at least they make amazing scalpels), they're almost defect free right down to the molecular level on SEM images and probably the sharpest blade man has ever made. Link related; steel scalpel compared to obsidian under a SEM.
http://40.media.tumblr.com/85463a4160ae35335ef19cf4e97d73c6/tumblr_n43j90W2jg1qi5y5ro2_1280.png
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What you say about obsidian is true, which is why it probably ISN'T used for razors. Can you imagine all the ER visits from shavers who had an "oops" moment? It's bad enough with steel, with obsidian it could prove fatal.
Ceramic is an interesting notion, though . . . I wonder if it would be cost prohibitive, either in the manufacturing or in the retail end of things.
Ceramic is an interesting notion, though . . . I wonder if it would be cost prohibitive, either in the manufacturing or in the retail end of things.
Honed did a ceramic knife shave a while back
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R9luYO-NpE
I suppose this is a pattern welded steel, but still beautiful.
Also, Found this which is quite interesting
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/29/science/the-mystery-of-damascus-steel-appears-solved.html
I suppose this is a pattern welded steel, but still beautiful.
Also, Found this which is quite interesting
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/29/science/the-mystery-of-damascus-steel-appears-solved.html
That's a brilliant video.
Seriously I don't understand why they don't make ceramic straight razors. Knife-grade ceramic is usually harder than steel (though admittedly has less tensile strength and elasticity which means it could break easily if cheap and not hardened) so you would get more shaves out of a ceramic knife than you would a steel one before stropping, it'll have a more even 'cleaner' microscopic edge too, so less nicks. I'd happily pay a fair bit (no more than a good ceramic chef's knife of the same or similar material) for one though I'd probably need different hones to cope with the hardness of the blade if I were to re-hone it; though since it blunts slower it may be cheaper just to send it away for honing. There has to be a reason why they don't make them or else there's a completely open market for a clever entrepreneur (with money, which I sadly don't have) to make great razors that can be poured and then fired in a kiln, which is probably cheaper than the steel method of production. I wonder if we'll see new ceramic cutthroats in a few years.
@Orville
I'm not sure if the whole fatal accident thing from an obsidian razor could be true. Firstly there would likely be a metal holder with an obsidian blade poking out (like a heavy shavette) unless someone could manage to grind a full razor out of it. Even then; the steel we shave with is razor sharp, once we cut ourselves we usually know because the lather or air causes plenty of stinging on the nerves, the same would be true for obsidian; it's not going to cut through flesh like butter any more than a shave ready steel razor; sure it'll sink in smoothly but anything requiring an A&E visit is either going to be minor stitches or really bad requiring trauma surgery, no matter what you're shaving on. I'd wager the really bad is when someone gets the floor wet and slips with a pointed razor held to their chin/neck I'd say if the same happened with obsidian either way it'd be easier to sew the guy back up again and the wounds would heal quicker; which is why it's all the rage in the scalpel scene these days. Obsidian blades would just deliver a closer shave with no pulling and less nicks caused by blade deformity. A lot like ceramic. I think...
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- Thread starter
- #17
This has been incredibly informative, thank you! Also, there's some beautiful razor pics posted! I've heard a lot of eBay blade condemnation; am I to understand that all blades on eBay, etsy, etc., are to be deemed as inherently "dodgy?" I mean, is it such a "given" that one should avoid even bothering looking there? If so, perhaps some recommended web sites for more reputable blades could be forthcoming? Thanks in advance.
If you are not very familiar with straight razors yet, stay far far away from Ebay. That is the best advice anyone will give you. Buying a straight from the Buy/Sell boards here at B&B or at Straight Razor Place or the Shave Nook is a MUCH better idea. If the seller says it is shave ready, it likely will be and you have the benefit of many people looking at those ads who will pipe up if something is for sale that is dodgy.
I'd agree with this. One thing you should definitely do is message the seller and ask them what they mean by shave ready. Personally I'd take 'shave ready' to mean honed and stropped right before sale and thus you can take it out of the packaging and shave right off the bat with it.
Thing is, if you message the seller, ask him how he got the blade shave ready and if it's ready to go out of the box, if he replies with a yes and it isn't shave ready it's an item not as described. At that point you may want to contact the seller about a return and refund, or the money to get a professional hone job done along with compensation for the time lost in the week or two it takes for the honer to get round to honing your blade, obviously not any more compensation and hone-money than half the cost of what you paid. Thing is, when a seller sells you a bad blade (or anything else, once got a photographic lens that was sold as mint but had metalic looking dust right in the centre of the front element, which I returned and got a full refund for + postage) that was supposed to be shave ready. You'll probably end up having to return it, though the seller will have to refund you + refund the postage both to you (if he charges for postage) and from you to him.
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