Coticule Questions

[Kyle Hyde]

The more I have been reading about what kind of hone should be my first, the more I want a coticule. I do have some questions though.

Will finishing with a coticule and just water give a razor the "coticule finish" or do you have to use it with slurry first?
Do you have to put tape on the spine before finishing on it?
Would a coticule that is 5x1 be difficult to use as a first hone or should I spurlge on a 6x2?
If someone has never honed before, is finishing on a coticule with just water difficult.
Can a coticule maintain an edge? If so, is it unnecessary or counterproductive to use pastes after finishing on a coticule?
When should slurry be used?
What is the best source for a coticule? Do they come up often enough on the B/S/T to wait around for?

 

[richmondesi]

The more I have been reading about what kind of hone should be my first, the more I want a coticule. I do have some questions though.

Will finishing with a coticule and just water give a razor the "coticule finish" or do you have to use it with slurry first?
Do you have to put tape on the spine before finishing on it?
Would a coticule that is 5x1 be difficult to use as a first hone or should I spurlge on a 6x2?
If someone has never honed before, is finishing on a coticule with just water difficult.
Can a coticule maintain an edge? If so, is it unnecessary or counterproductive to use pastes after finishing on a coticule?
When should slurry be used?
What is the best source for a coticule? Do they come up often enough on the B/S/T to wait around for?

Yes a coticule finish can be had by using water only. In fact, that's the way that many users use them.

You do not have to put tape on the spine before finishing it. Utilizing the "Unicot" method is, however, the easiest way to achieve excellent results when using a Coticule IME. Dilucot takes more precision, but can yield equally excellent edges.

Yes Coticules can maintain an edge. It's not necessarily counter productive to use pastes, but once you get good with it, you'll likely find it unnecessary. The issue with pastes is that over time, they convex the bevel meaning you have to work harder to get that perfect /\ shaped bevel. If you don't mind working harder to get the bevel flat... that's your call

Slurry should be used when more metal removal is desired (i.e. bevel setting and diluted out gradually to attain more keenness)

Honing with anything is not easy for anyone that hasn't honed before. Coticules are no exception. In fact, the very nature of how slow they cut makes them less than ideal for beginners IMHO because it's much much easier to make 4-8 laps on a barbers hone than it is to make dozens (or more) laps on a Coticule to get the desired results. However, I'm of the opinion that a well honed razor on a coticule delivers the best edge for my face (while it doesn't make sense on an intellectual level, it seems the edge off the coticule can discern between the face and the whiskers - to borrow Bart's observation). The narrower the stone you get, the more difficult it will be for a new guy. I'd guess that a 6X2 would be nice. I could use a 5X1 (I've got a bout that is similar in size that I love), but added length is preferable (and I'd pay for the extra inch in width as well- especially as a new honer). Also, we learn from failure as well as (if not more than) successes. Just like the process of learning to lather or shave, enjoy the journey in learning to hone

Coticules come up from time to time, but there is an active mine that sells them www.ardennes-coticule.com. There are vendors who sell them as well. To really learn a lot about coticules, check the link in my sig to Coticule.be. Bart Torfs has created a tremendous resource for all things related to Coticules. Spend a bit of time and read everything you can there.

 

[Chimensch]

The more I have been reading about what kind of hone should be my first, the more I want a coticule. I do have some questions though.

Will finishing with a coticule and just water give a razor the "coticule finish" or do you have to use it with slurry first?
Do you have to put tape on the spine before finishing on it?
Would a coticule that is 5x1 be difficult to use as a first hone or should I spurlge on a 6x2?
If someone has never honed before, is finishing on a coticule with just water difficult.
Can a coticule maintain an edge? If so, is it unnecessary or counterproductive to use pastes after finishing on a coticule?
When should slurry be used?
What is the best source for a coticule? Do they come up often enough on the B/S/T to wait around for?

The coticule with just water gives you a very nice shaving edge. It wouldn't hurt to use slurry first every time you touch up the razor. That makes sure you have a fresh edge and then thin out the slurry to finish with just water.

You don't have to tape the spine unless you want to protect it for some reason. You don't have to use pastes or any other hone after the coticule (unless you want to experiment).

I think a 1" x 5" may be slightly too small, but it is useable; 6" x 2" would be better.

One source for a coticule that I like is Howard Schechter at the Perfect Edge. Others will recommend other vendors.

 

[Kyle Hyde]

Thanks for that info. Do you know any honemeisters that use coticule finishes?

 

[richmondesi]

Thanks for that info. Do you know any honemeisters that use coticule finishes?

Bart offers a free honing service through his website

 

[richmondesi]

Also, I don't know any recognized honemeisters that finish with a Coticule. Most use either a really high grit synthetic alone or they finish on a paste. You can use that information to help you judge if you think Coticules are the right choice for you. A razor finished on Cerium Oxide is excellent too. There are several excellent options

 

[Chimensch]

Bart offers a free honing service through his website

Do not send a razor to Europe for honing from the US, it's a bureaucratic nightmare.

 

[richmondesi]

Do not send a razor to Europe for honing from the US, it's a bureaucratic nightmare.

I think he has a US affiliate, but I've honed razors and shipped to Europe on several occasions without any issues. You may have had a bad experience, but from what I understand, there have not been any issues shipping back and forth while utilizing that service

 

[SliceOfLife]

I seem to recall Lynn Abrams mentioning that he liked his Charnley finish as much as his synths, but maybe I'm imagining things. Other than that, I do recall someone asking what the honemeisters used as a final stone once awhile back and it was almost exclusively synths. My memory fails me, but it was mostly a split of 15 and 30k Shaptons wasn't it?

 

[Bertilak]

I am a newbie honer who can get a pretty good edge from Naniwa 5/8/12K series but still cannot match that with just a Coti. I have had decent results with Coti/12K Naniwa, but that was harder for me than Naniwa all the way.

Point being I think the Coti takes more skill so as a beginner you might want to start with something that will get you to success faster.

(I speak with authority since I am an expert at being a newbie! )

Edit: Bart suggested something to me I haven't tried yet: Use the Naniwa 12K between Coti-slurry and Coti-water.

 

[GsSixgun]

Most of us that hone a ton of razors, do take requests on what finish you might want...

 

[Bart]

Will finishing with a coticule and just water give a razor the "coticule finish" or do you have to use it with slurry first?

Honing of water will give you the "coticule finish", but there's no guarantee that the edge will shave well.
Allow me an example to clarify. Suppose you would hone a razor as keen as it gets on a DMT-E (that's a diamond hone with a grit rating of 1200 mesh)? The edge of the DMT is appears very sharp. It pops hanging hairs with ease. Yet no one shaves with it, because it scrapes the skin to much. That happens because the DMT leave a microscopical sawtooth pattern at the very edge, highly effective (like a micro-serrated knife), but not all that smooth. Imagine you would finish that edge on a Coticule with just water. It can be done. A few 100 laps and all the DMT scratches are gone. So are the sawtooth projections. The edge falls back to its true keenness (the edge width behind the projections). Your razor will now skip hairs and pull. Your skin will be less irritated, but the shave result is terrible. I know this for fact because I have actually tried it.

In other words, to unleash the full potential, the finishing must be done on a fine and keen edge, that already shaves very decently. For the same reason, you must touch-up a razor at the first signs of performance loss. A friend of mine does 20 laps on his Coticule with water every 7th shave. He's going on for 2 years now, with 2 razors in use.

If the razor is dulled beyond the sweet point, you'll need to bring it back to life before finishing on water works. There are many options to do that, including some methods that use only the same Coticule (requires the use of slurry).

Do you have to put tape on the spine before finishing on it?

If the edge was previously honed with a layer of tape, you need to finish with tape attached as well.

Would a coticule that is 5x1 be difficult to use as a first hone or should I spurlge on a 6x2?

I don't know a lot about prices of the various resellers, but prices at the quarry are significantly cheaper if you buy just a little less wide than 2" (There's high demand for 2", and the price curve slopes steeply at that width). I actually like 1"3/4 (40mm) better for honing razors, and since they come a lot cheaper, that's what I advice to buy. 6" length is enough, but 7" or 8" is a bit faster and more luxurious to work on. Obviously, the edges won't be any sharper.

If someone has never honed before, is finishing on a coticule with just water difficult?

Razor honing requires a stable and steady honing stroke. Some people learn it in 5 minutes, some need 5 weeks.
I don't think it's essentially more difficult on a Coticule than on any other hone. Coticules offer a pleasant feel while honing, that invites to keep the razor steady and make an even stroke.

Can a coticule maintain an edge? If so, is it unnecessary or counterproductive to use pastes after finishing on a coticule?

When you start using pastes for touching up your razor's edge, you'll slowly (or more rapidly, depending on the type of strop and abrasive compound) introduce a convex shape into the edge bevel. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It'll take a long time before the edge is so convexed that you need to reestablish a flat bevel on a hone. BUT: once convexed the very edge will no longer be able to make contact with the flat surface of a hone. For that reason, once you started with pasted touch-ups, you need to stay on it, till the next full honing of the razor.

When should slurry be used?

Slurry makes a Coticule fast, suitable for reflattening convexed bevel faces, or to hone edge deterioration on a dull razor. Once the cutting bevel is perfected on slurry, it needs further refining, before it can be finished on the Coticule with water. As said, there are various options to do so. It's too much information to go into in this post.

What is the best source for a coticule? Do they come up often enough on the B/S/T to wait around for?

I have no idea of the B/S/T forums here on B&B.
Here's a list of worldwide resellers.
http://www.coticule.be/Rec_web.html

Best regards,
Bart.

 

[Kyle Hyde]

Thank you for that post Bart. That was very informative.

 

[mparker762]

When you start using pastes for touching up your razor's edge, you'll slowly (or more rapidly, depending on the type of strop and abrasive compound) introduce a convex shape into the edge bevel. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It'll take a long time before the edge is so convexed that you need to reestablish a flat bevel on a hone. BUT: once convexed the very edge will no longer be able to make contact with the flat surface of a hone. For that reason, once you started with pasted touch-ups, you need to stay on it, till the next full honing of the razor.

It's not the paste itself that is at fault here. The convexing occurs because the abrasive surface is convex. If the paste is used on a sufficiently firm and flat surface then no convexing occurs. A hanging strop or loom strop of course cause rapid convexing, and I've found that leather-covered paddles and balsa paddles are also usually too soft; even though they don't bend like a hanging strop they do compress and flex beneath the razor thus achieving the same effect. I've tested linen-covered paddles and bare hardwood paddles and found both are capable of maintaining a razor indefinitely (thousands of laps anyway) without detectable convexing of the edge.

Also if you put the paste on too thick that will also cause convexing because the paste itself is thick enough to flow around the blade as it passes. But this is a special case of the situation I described above - if the paste is too thick then the layer of paste that is abrading the blade is not held in place by the wood/leather/whatever, but by the (unstable) layer of paste below it.

 

[Bart]

It's not the paste itself that is at fault here. The convexing occurs because the abrasive surface is convex. If the paste is used on a sufficiently firm and flat surface then no convexing occurs. A hanging strop or loom strop of course cause rapid convexing, and I've found that leather-covered paddles and balsa paddles are also usually too soft; even though they don't bend like a hanging strop they do compress and flex beneath the razor thus achieving the same effect. I've tested linen-covered paddles and bare hardwood paddles and found both are capable of maintaining a razor indefinitely (thousands of laps anyway) without detectable convexing of the edge.

Also if you put the paste on too thick that will also cause convexing because the paste itself is thick enough to flow around the blade as it passes. But this is a special case of the situation I described above - if the paste is too thick then the layer of paste that is abrading the blade is not held in place by the wood/leather/whatever, but by the (unstable) layer of paste below it.

Full agreement.
But it's my experience that notably the finer pastes, such as CrO and Dovo Black, lend their efficacy from being allowed to convex the edge. On a bendable or compressible surface, the bulk of the abrasion takes place at the very edge, hence these have, for the fineness of the abrasive, a relatively great potential to refine the edge. CrO, for example, when excluded from the convexity advantage, by use on a hard and stiff surface, takes many laps to improve keenness on an edge. On a loom strop it achieves the same 10 times faster, and on a Balsa (which seems to allow a thicker coat without adverse effects) it's even quicker.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[domino]

A lot of good information here, thanks.
Does a Coti work well with stainless?

 

[richmondesi]

A lot of good information here, thanks.
Does a Coti work well with stainless?

yes IME

 

[Klarion]

Thanks for that info. Do you know any honemeisters that use coticule finishes?

Actually, Ray-Man can provide coticule honing. Lots of people have been satisfied with his edges - myself included.

 

[domino]

=richmondesi;1892850]yes IME[/QUOTE]

Terriffic!.....

 

[domino]

yes IME

A lot of good information here, thanks.
Does a Coti work well with stainless?

Terriffic....