You've discovered the reason why I only use dry measure of ground beans. It makes pretty consistently good coffee with very little tweaking needed
Coffee bean density
- Thread starter gpjoe
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Wait a minute, I meant to say ‘run away from the light’!
I will add one more point that I didn’t see mentioned, though I am working, so skimmed rather than carefully read the posts. The elevation each bean is grown at will impact the density of the beans. The same variety will generally be denser when grown at higher elevations.
You've struck a nerve. I've managed to convince people to measure thousands of bags of roasted coffee over the last 3 years, so I have pretty good statistics on the range and frequency of roasted coffee beans. I then use this density range to computer generate extraction recipes using standard parameter ranges. For example, plotting espresso ratio 1:1 to 1:4 over the density range. The sequence of recipes effectively goes from extract the least to extract the most in steps. There is an article in the menu on the site that foes into the maths. Then you can use the sequence of recipes to dial in by taste. If its bitter its over extracted and you need to extract less, so jump down the sequence, of if its sour you need to extract more, so jump up the sequence. You don't have to measure your coffee's density to use the system, it defaults to the median, but if you do, you will get a better starting position.
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Interesting website, bookmarked in case the link is taken down. The recipe is not something I would have thought to try, but I certainly will tomorrow! I admit that I am skeptical because grinding course enough to produce the same brew time as I am getting now is going to require a courser grind which hasn't worked well for me in the past. Hopefully the additional water makes up for this or I am going to wind up with un-saveable under extracted coffee. I have a TDS meter to verify my results.
Read what Christopher Hendon says adout TDS Meters
You tongue is the only thing that matters.
Espresso Wars: A new hope
Use the force Luke, Let go.
He's switched of his targeting TDS meter, gasp, Luke are you all right?
I've lost R2.
You're all clear kid, now let's blow this thing and go home.
Great shot kid, that was one in a million.
Remember, the force (your tongue), will be with you always.
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Well, I wasn't exactly looking to accept a new religion, but let's just say that I am considering it. 
My first brew was a throw away, wrong grind, and that made me frustrated because I couldn't save it. Now, this second cup is exactly what the recipe calls for and... it's broke my brain! I have a TDS under 1% and this doesn't taste like new wave under extracted sour hipster coffee. This has excellent mouth feel, but I am still not sure what this is I am tasting. How the heck did I just run almost another 100ml through my usual coffee and have to grind finer without it over extracting? It's a good thing you posted a reminder to use my tongue, which I am admit I took as a bit condescending at the time, otherwise I would have thrown this out without giving it a chance. But what am even drinking here, I don't even understand!? I mean, I am not the average Joe coffee drinker, I have been involved in specialty coffee for over twenty years and I know how to taste coffee... and I don't know what this beverage is I am drinking. Let's see what happens with the Flair 58...
Oh yeah, I can say thanks for posting now!
My first brew was a throw away, wrong grind, and that made me frustrated because I couldn't save it. Now, this second cup is exactly what the recipe calls for and... it's broke my brain! I have a TDS under 1% and this doesn't taste like new wave under extracted sour hipster coffee. This has excellent mouth feel, but I am still not sure what this is I am tasting. How the heck did I just run almost another 100ml through my usual coffee and have to grind finer without it over extracting? It's a good thing you posted a reminder to use my tongue, which I am admit I took as a bit condescending at the time, otherwise I would have thrown this out without giving it a chance. But what am even drinking here, I don't even understand!? I mean, I am not the average Joe coffee drinker, I have been involved in specialty coffee for over twenty years and I know how to taste coffee... and I don't know what this beverage is I am drinking. Let's see what happens with the Flair 58...
Oh yeah, I can say thanks for posting now!
I have to retract my entire post above and I have no further comments. I have made some serious errors in both calculation and in understanding the recipes and am too embarrassed to discuss it any further. There is no excuse for somebody with my experience and therefore nothing I said or say about this is of any use. Somebody else needs to try these recipes themselves and bury my embarrassingly dumb posts. The espresso recipe through the Flair 58 is nice.
I love everything in this comment. In fact, can I add it as a testimonial? There is much to discuss. People think the recipes are wild and wacky, but in fact, each parameter is within the accepted norms, often SCA published ranges. The real takeaway is that roast levels are far more varied than people give credit for. Nonbinary roast fluid you might say. It is still technically called espresso, even at such high yields, Espresso Lungo Allongé 1:4 ratio if that is where the required recipe takes you.Well, I wasn't exactly looking to accept a new religion, but let's just say that I am considering it.
My first brew was a throw away, wrong grind, and that made me frustrated because I couldn't save it. Now, this second cup is exactly what the recipe calls for and... it's broke my brain! I have a TDS under 1% and this doesn't taste like new wave under extracted sour hipster coffee. This has excellent mouth feel, but I am still not sure what this is I am tasting. How the heck did I just run almost another 100ml through my usual coffee and have to grind finer without it over extracting? It's a good thing you posted a reminder to use my tongue, which I am admit I took as a bit condescending at the time, otherwise I would have thrown this out without giving it a chance. But what am even drinking here, I don't even understand!? I mean, I am not the average Joe coffee drinker, I have been involved in specialty coffee for over twenty years and I know how to taste coffee... and I don't know what this beverage is I am drinking. Let's see what happens with the Flair 58...
Oh yeah, I can say thanks for posting now!
In the end it is all about the smell and taste. All the technical stuff is just means to that end.
There isn't really anything to quote there as a testimonial, I will make some more comments after I have done some more shots with my 58. The grind setting didn't even need to be changed; I used a touch less pressure and obviously pulled a longer shot. The only niggling question is how to you define shot time? I assume, since you are using a 58 too, that it's from the first drop and does not include the pre-infusion time. This gives me a total time of about 37 seconds and I just about hit that, in fact this is what I was doing when I got the Flair, but I was made to believe I was running too long of a shot.
All of my coffee that I roast is in a narrow band between .370 and .390, even narrower really, and your high percentages for roasts in a specific range line right up with my two most used profiles. I am still too embarrassed to talk about what I screwed up, but it's related to how many recipes are above(density) the level I roast to and I never roast past second crack. I can't even imagine using anything above recipe 83, those coffees must taste like grass! Well, fruity grass I guess.
I’ve been following this with some interest the last few days, but hadn’t had time to explore the site until this morning. I’ve only started experimenting with the recipes using some inexpensive dark roast beans I typically use to make morning coffee for my wife and son, but it’s been very successful. I’ve struggled dialing in shots since I started making espresso a few months ago, but I have noticed I tend prefer pulls on the longer side, especially with lighter roasts. The recipes are leading me to understand I’ve typically ground too fine and dosed too low (something @APBinNCA has gently implied to me in the past with other brewing methods as well). All in all I find it very helpful and I can’t wait to get some lighter beans to try.
Just make sure that you are certain about your density measurement when you do. I have taken to using exactly 100ml because I can get close(40g) and add or more likely subtract until I am certain that I am right at that level. Then the math can be done in one's head because obviously the weight divided by 100 times a thousand means you just read the weight on the scale and move the decimal over one to the right and Bob's your Aunty.
I’m currently using this measuring cup and tamping the beans lightly with my Flair Pro 2 tamper:
When I get home I’ll check the accuracy of the marks on this cup against my scales, but honestly I don’t really trust either of those to 0.1 g. I have to draw the line at some point, though lol.
Edit #2: I’m using the Flair Pro 2, not the Flair 58. I don’t really know how the smaller, thicker puck changes the calculations either, so obviously I’m just going for similar times and yields for given doses. Even so this is better than my educated guesses without the recipe.
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But you need to be measuring grams/litre, that's the density. You have to use a scale to know the weight of the beans so I am not sure how you are accomplishing that? I just put the measuring cup on the scale, zero, fill to about 100ml, add and subtract beans and then look at the weight. I admit that I massively screwed this up, as mentioned above, the first time, so I may still be. But the recommended recipes are very close to what I use for filter already. Also, if you click "roast levels chart" and scroll to the bottom, you can click any one of the recipes. That's how I use the site now, it even has the probability percentage!
Yep, sorry I wasn’t clear. I’m doing the same thing you are. I just meant I’m using that measuring cup on my scale instead of the cylinder recommended on the site. When I said I’d check the accuracy of the measuring cup I meant I’d zero the scale with it on there, fill it to as close to 100 ml as I can by eye and see how close to 100g it is. From there I can see how off I am (or its marks are).
We don't use many bean choices so it's relatively easy to use our scale and dial each one of them in... My wife likes her coffee a bit less bold than mine....
Using volume as a measurement didn't work for us... grams seems to be the way to make a repeatable process. She likes 43.7 grams of Don Pablo Signature blend in one of our French presses... I use 45 grams for mine.
Using volume as a measurement didn't work for us... grams seems to be the way to make a repeatable process. She likes 43.7 grams of Don Pablo Signature blend in one of our French presses... I use 45 grams for mine.
Try some Dean's Beans.
Excellent coffee, not only high quality beans. They assist grows around the world. Dean is not retired but sold the company to his employees. He is one great human and has does the right for his company, his employees and growers around the world. That is what I want to support. Plus the coffee is super. Check then out online.
Not if you are a favored coffee person. Forget it, this is real coffee. ..lol
BFX
Excellent coffee, not only high quality beans. They assist grows around the world. Dean is not retired but sold the company to his employees. He is one great human and has does the right for his company, his employees and growers around the world. That is what I want to support. Plus the coffee is super. Check then out online.
Not if you are a favored coffee person. Forget it, this is real coffee. ..lol
BFX
I measured Don Pablo Signature for the recipe and got 37.5 g for 100 ml, .375 or 375 for the purpose of the site’s calculator. It’d be interesting to compare that to what you get with your batch if you find time to do it.
I know you were replying to Kim, but that is fascinating thanks! That is one of my two roast levels and I never would have thought a commercial coffee would be roasted that "light."
He is using a much higher ratio than the recipe, a slightly lower water temp and a longer brew time. It's a very unique recipe that he has come to, I was an advisor early on.
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