Chef's Knife

[abandonship]

How could I have forgotten to mention these??? Cooks illustrated puts them right at the top (especially the Chef's knife,) and they're stamped, not forged. also dirt cheap. Go figure.

My Forschner bread knife if a wonderful tool. I use it on much more than bread. Can't beat the price for the quality.

 

[jfl]

I follow the method in www.razoredgesystems.com. I got their book from the library and they back-up their methods with real world tests.

Stainless vs carbon steel? stainless

Sharpen dry or with oil? dry

They did these comparisons with meat packers to get their answers. Not what most of us believe to be true.

Jim

 

[HlSheppard]

I follow the method in www.razoredgesystems.com. I got their book from the library and they back-up their methods with real world tests.

Stainless vs carbon steel? stainless

Sharpen dry or with oil? dry

They did these comparisons with meat packers to get their answers. Not what most of us believe to be true.

Jim

Jim -

That is the exact way I've sharpened for years. I'm 37 now, in my teens, my best friend's dad always had RAZOR sharp knives (pocket, hunting, you name it). As I collected knives back then and was learning how to properly sharpen (but was not able to get them that sharp), I asked my buddy's dad how he got his knives so sharp. The set that he got out of his drawer was from Razor Edge Systems.

That was it... I went on a pilgrimage to find them (as they were only sold at outdoors shows, etc at that time). I ended up calling the company and got the "deluxe set" at that time. It yields incredible results. A few years after that, I bought (and still use) the book you recommend as well.

I have not found a single "system" or technique that can give me better results that what I've used all this time. I've tried 'em all (Norton, Arkansas, Lamson, Ceramic, Diamond, etc, etc).

I can get my Global chef's knife so sharp that it will cleanly slice free-hanging toilet paper!! Try it and you'll see how hard that is!

The book changed my entire outlook on sharpening (for some of the reasons you list). The author did a TON of research and backed it up with actual real-world field testing.

I can't tell you how many people will scoff at the stainless vs. carbon debate as well as the oil vs. dry stone, etc. All I can say is that the results I can get speak for themselves. Also, I've learned that there is as much folklore and untested "science" behind knife sharpening as anything else out there.

 

[HlSheppard]

Which model do you own? Is it one of the electric models? If I recall the one Cooks Illustrated was recommending was around $120 or $150

I think the model was 120 or something, they also have a new model for Japanese knives. I used to take my knives to be sharpened around once or twice a year but that time has passsed. I think I've not bought a set of hand sharpening stones yet because I feel like I want to be shown how to use them right and haven't found a site with a REALLY good tutorial.

Not sure off hand - at the time (maybe 9 years ago?) it was the best one that they had. They have at least one model better now (that will supposedly sharpen serrated edges as well).

 

[HlSheppard]

I also have a Chef's choice and can get a fabulous edge in less than a minute. Which is better? The question is irrelevant, since you're looking for a 22 1/2 degree edge. (11 1/4 for Japanese knives.) The 22 1/2 degree edge developed by hand is no different from the same angle developed by a machine. Why use one over the other? Why go for wet shaving if all you want to do is remove hair? The answer is that some people want to sharpen their knives by hand. Some mistakenly believe that the knife is sharper. As I said before 22 1/2 degrees is the correct angle, and it doesn't matter how you get there. If you're planning on handing your knives down to your great grandchildren, by all means avoid the electric. Otherwise, take your pick. I switch back and forth between the two.

Well, maybe you have a newer Chef's Choice than mine (chances are, that's the case) - but theoretically you are correct. ONLY theoretically... What I mean by that is that my Chef's Choice is incapable of "locking" your knife at the perfect angle to get the desired result.

Mine uses these magnetic guides that:

1) allow the blade to float all over the place, which in effect does more harm than good.

2) Do not allow you to sharpen the back inch or so of a blade with a full bolster (as with a Wusthof, Globals or stamped knives are OK).

Those are the two main reasons why I sharpen by hand.

 

[ratcheer]

Do you sharpen one side of the blade, or both?

The reason I ask is because I worked with a very smart guy from Hong Kong (he held multiple post-graduate degrees) whose father had been a lifelong knife and scissor sharpener for the garment industry, there. He said his father said only one side of a blade should be sharpened. When I thought about it, it seems to make sense.

Tim

 

[chef8489]

Do you sharpen one side of the blade, or both?

The reason I ask is because I worked with a very smart guy from Hong Kong (he held multiple post-graduate degrees) whose father had been a lifelong knife and scissor sharpener for the garment industry, there. He said his father said only one side of a blade should be sharpened. When I thought about it, it seems to make sense.

Tim

Depends on the knife. Most european style knives are sharpened both sides but a lot of asian knives are sharpened single bevel.

 

[ratcheer]

Depends on the knife. Most european style knives are sharpened both sides but a lot of asian knives are sharpened single bevel.

Thanks. I guess it is complicated, like everything else.

Tim

 

[TheYoshi]

Jim -

That is the exact way I've sharpened for years. I'm 37 now, in my teens, my best friend's dad always had RAZOR sharp knives (pocket, hunting, you name it). As I collected knives back then and was learning how to properly sharpen (but was not able to get them that sharp), I asked my buddy's dad how he got his knives so sharp. The set that he got out of his drawer was from Razor Edge Systems.

That was it... I went on a pilgrimage to find them (as they were only sold at outdoors shows, etc at that time). I ended up calling the company and got the "deluxe set" at that time. It yields incredible results. A few years after that, I bought (and still use) the book you recommend as well....

So, from that site what would you recommend as a good "starter set"?

 

[HlSheppard]

Do you sharpen one side of the blade, or both?

The reason I ask is because I worked with a very smart guy from Hong Kong (he held multiple post-graduate degrees) whose father had been a lifelong knife and scissor sharpener for the garment industry, there. He said his father said only one side of a blade should be sharpened. When I thought about it, it seems to make sense.

Tim

True for scissors. Knifes can be "purpose-sharpened" but for the most part we sharpen on both sides in the U.S. (meaning chef's knives).

 

[ouch]

Do you sharpen one side of the blade, or both?

The reason I ask is because I worked with a very smart guy from Hong Kong (he held multiple post-graduate degrees) whose father had been a lifelong knife and scissor sharpener for the garment industry, there. He said his father said only one side of a blade should be sharpened. When I thought about it, it seems to make sense.

Tim

Even if you're talking about a single bevel knife, both sides must be sharpened. Why? When you sharpen, you are basically grinding away metal until it forms a burr- the edge actually folds over to the other side. At this stage, it's pretty much useless until the burr is ground away on the other side.
Some folks maintain that the best way to know when you're ready to move on to a finer grit is when you're able to flop the burr from side to side with a single stroke on the stone.

 

[HlSheppard]

So, from that site what would you recommend as a good "starter set"?

I have the "Deluxe Profession Kit w/ 8 inch hones." Since I tend to have slightly longer blades and I don't do arrow heads or fish hooks - it fit me just perfect.

I still have it and it will most certainly last damned near forever. The guides have a small amount of wear on them, but I can replace them when I need to by themselves.

They only offered the Naugahyde case when I bought mine (1986??), but I do like the black plastic box better.

Another thing I learned from this company (the book in particular) was how damned useless 99.9% of the sharpening steels out there are. I have their "professional straight steel" and it has a chrome hard - MIRROR finish on it. Compared to all of the fluted steels out there that come for free in all the wood block sets? Well, let's just say there is no comparison. Almost no pressure (think Slant bar shaving) and my edges are lined up and true for a LONG time in between honing.

 

[HlSheppard]

Even if you're talking about a single bevel knife, both sides must be sharpened. Why? When you sharpen, you are basically grinding away metal until it forms a burr- the edge actually folds over to the other side. At this stage, it's pretty much useless until the burr is ground away on the other side.
Some folks maintain that the best way to know when you're ready to move on to a finer grit is when you're able to flop the burr from side to side with a single stroke on the stone.

Very true, Ouch. Even on a chisel, you're still creating and removing a burr. HOW DID I MISS saying that??

 

[jfl]

So, from that site what would you recommend as a good "starter set"?

I went low end. Just two stones and two guides. Found a plastic box that fit everything perfectly for about 3 bucks.

Jim

 

[HlSheppard]

What can I say Jim - I over-indulge. Need some blades??

 

[ravkesef]

Well, maybe you have a newer Chef's Choice than mine (chances are, that's the case) - but theoretically you are correct. ONLY theoretically... What I mean by that is that my Chef's Choice is incapable of "locking" your knife at the perfect angle to get the desired result.

Mine uses these magnetic guides that:

1) allow the blade to float all over the place, which in effect does more harm than good.

2) Do not allow you to sharpen the back inch or so of a blade with a full bolster (as with a Wusthof, Globals or stamped knives are OK).

Those are the two main reasons why I sharpen by hand.

that's correct--mine holds the edge at a precise angle, and sharpens the entire length of the blade. That eliminates the problems that the older machines had (which I also bought, but discontinued using for the reasons you cite.)
so, with the newer machine, the theoretical becomes the actual, with the only drawback being the removal of more metal from the blade than would occur with hand sharpening.

 

[ravkesef]

Jim -

That is the exact way I've sharpened for years. I'm 37 now, in my teens, my best friend's dad always had RAZOR sharp knives (pocket, hunting, you name it). As I collected knives back then and was learning how to properly sharpen (but was not able to get them that sharp), I asked my buddy's dad how he got his knives so sharp. The set that he got out of his drawer was from Razor Edge Systems.

That was it... I went on a pilgrimage to find them (as they were only sold at outdoors shows, etc at that time). I ended up calling the company and got the "deluxe set" at that time. It yields incredible results. A few years after that, I bought (and still use) the book you recommend as well.

I have not found a single "system" or technique that can give me better results that what I've used all this time. I've tried 'em all (Norton, Arkansas, Lamson, Ceramic, Diamond, etc, etc).

I can get my Global chef's knife so sharp that it will cleanly slice free-hanging toilet paper!! Try it and you'll see how hard that is!

The book changed my entire outlook on sharpening (for some of the reasons you list). The author did a TON of research and backed it up with actual real-world field testing.

I can't tell you how many people will scoff at the stainless vs. carbon debate as well as the oil vs. dry stone, etc. All I can say is that the results I can get speak for themselves. Also, I've learned that there is as much folklore and untested "science" behind knife sharpening as anything else out there.

Howard--that's absolutely phenomenal! From the sound of it, far better than anything I've been able to achieve, and I regard myself as a pretty good knife sharpener. but this is way out of my league. But it would also seem that they must sharpen at a much smaller angle also, since sharpness is related not only to how smooth the edge is, but the actual angle of the blade. e.g., Japanese knives at 11 1/4 degrees, makes them "sharper" than European knives at 22 1/2 degrees. Do you know offhand what their angle is?
I've gone to their web site and I think I'll give them a call on Tuesday morning. In the meantime, a few tips from you would be appreciated. How does it differ, for example, from the Norton? In your opinion, what makes it possible to achieve that kind of edge with these stones. Also--looking over the equipment on their website, it does look rather labor intensive. Is that an accurate statement? And how easy is it to get up and running the first time, assuming a good degree of klutziness?
thanks for any info.

 

[ratcheer]

And how easy is it to get up and running the first time, assuming a good degree of klutziness?

That was funny.

I have another question. How does it compare to the Diamond system, which I have used for several years and gotten pretty good results, i.e., very sharp knives?

Thanks,
Tim

 

[HlSheppard]

Do you know offhand what their angle is?
I've gone to their web site and I think I'll give them a call on Tuesday morning. In the meantime, a few tips from you would be appreciated. How does it differ, for example, from the Norton? In your opinion, what makes it possible to achieve that kind of edge with these stones. Also--looking over the equipment on their website, it does look rather labor intensive. Is that an accurate statement? And how easy is it to get up and running the first time, assuming a good degree of klutziness?
thanks for any info.

The angle is determined by YOU (meaning where you set the guides on the spine of your knife blade. You work in a good strong burr on each side with the coarse stone, then polish with the fine. THEN you move the guides closer to the blade edge (meaning you slide them down vertically on the blade) and use the fine stone again. In effect, creating a wicked, polished double-beveled edge. The directions do a heck of a lot better job explaining this than I do! I've just used them so long I go through the motions at this point and fine tune where I need to. IF you're really serious about taking your sharpening to the "next level" get the book too. It's NOT a requirement - but after I found the book a number of years after I had been using the system - it really helped my understanding of the physics behind what I had been doing. The included directions are fine with pictures etc. (i.e. it's not a "step sell" type of thing). Don't worry about Klutz factor - that's my middle name.

A Norton is a great stone, I think you could probably use these guides on a Norton and get good results. HOWEVER, what I do know is these stones are made up of some very proprietary materials. I once heard through the grapevine that they were a type of optical flour used for grinding eyeglass lenses(?). However - they are to by used DRY. No water or oil of any kind (unlike the Norton).

I don't think they're really much more labor intensive than any other type of sharpening. The first use takes longer, since you may be putting a proper bevel/burr on a blade that may not have had that in a while. Other than that - I think the results are easily worth it. My relatives won't even let me sharpen their knives anymore because they're "too sharp." I tried explaining to them (as Scotto so deftly put it) that a sharp knife is way safer in the kitchen and they just 'tune out.'

 

[HlSheppard]

That was funny.

I have another question. How does it compare to the Diamond system, which I have used for several years and gotten pretty good results, i.e., very sharp knives?

Thanks,
Tim

Hi Tim -

I suppose it would depend on which system you have. I had the Lamson system in the plastic case with the "rods." The system made sense, but the hones were way too course to get a wicked, polished edge on a blade (yours may differ, though). The diamond "stones" would probably be OK - but again the ones I have remove a lot of steel and are way too course for a good, polished edge.

Another "old wives tale" regarding knife edges refers to the actual cutting being done by "micro serrations." Bah! Can you image a Feather razor blade with "micro serrations?!" I know that someone posted microscopic edge pics somewhere on this site...

Serious sharpness comes from a polished, smooth edge. Can you imagine shaving with a straight razor with a rough edge? Ain't pretty, lemme tell ya.

I don't think a smooth leather strop helps support the "micro serration" theory; but you'd be surprised how many people will swear to that.