Straight razors, shaving brushes and soaps, DE razors, SE razors, Fountain pens (I haven't found any posts on goose quill pens yet but I'm hopeful. Fascinatin' this focus on antiques. 'Course now that I am one (antique that is) I suppose it's more of a fellowship with the ancient than a fascination. Anybody here like to shoot the old black powder cartridge rifles? My wife (if pressed I will refer to her as vintage instead of antique) and I regularly bang away in local matches with a highwall and a rolling block. Anybody else play with these toys, either original or reproduction?
Black Powder Cartridge Shooters?
- Thread starter oldbluelight
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I shoot a Browning 1885 BPCR in 45-70, 3 varieties of Marlin 1895's, and a Winchester 1886 Repro takedown in 45-70, Marlin 336 Cowboy in 38-55, Marlin 1894CL in 32-20, and my grandaddy of all the black powder cartridges, a model of1871 Swiss Vetterli in 10.4x38R, the R being rimfire. I converted the Swiss to centerfire and make cases by reforming and trimming either .348 Winchester or 8mm French Lebel brass. I have a custom mold for a reproduction heeled bullet, but can use standard cast .429 bullets ( for .44 Special or 44 Mag) in it. It is a a bolt action repeater with a tubular magazine holding, I think, 13 rounds . I found this one on gunbroker a few years back and it has an absolutly perfect bore, clean shiney, with no pitts commonly found in black powder guns of this age, 141 years.
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- #3
Wooof! That's an impressive gun rack you got there. About the only thing missing is a Martini Henry. I'm always amazed at what these old rifles will do. My Pedersoli rolling block will do 1.5 MOA or less off the bench if I do my part and the Browning 40-65 isn't too far behind it. Which one is your favorite? That Vetterli is the one that loads through a gate on the receiver like a Winchester isn't it?
I shoot some black powder cartridges in original arms. The .45-70, .45-90, .38-40, .32-20, .32 Long Colt, .38 Long Colt, .41 Long Colt, and .45 Colt are the cartridges used.
Yep, Loads like a Winchester. Their 1869 model had a cover on the loading port that was eliminated from the 1871. It uses a lifter that was somewhat copied from the Winchester/Henry rifles.
My favorite is the little 32-20. It's small light, only holds 6 rounds but is fun for plinking.
Mine is a Martini-Henry Mk.I, I've only fired one twenty round box through it and back to the safe it went. If ammo was easier to find I might shoot it more, or if I could use it for muzzle loading deer season. I imagine that it will be going up for sale soon so I can replace it with a musket-rifle.
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- #7
Do you reload? Black Powder reloading is the only way to go for me. Shooting factory ammo for any of these calibers is way too expensive if you're going to enjoy them on a regular basis. A lot of folks complain about the kick from a Martini-Henry. Ballistically it looks a lot like the 45-70 so I suppose it comes from the rifle's stock configuration.
I always contemplated using BP to reload some of my .45LC. I just don't trust myself or people on the Internet giving measurements. So, I just stuck with my "Trail boss" powder. I've always felt that BP was not something to play with as a novice reloader. I like using it in my old cap and ball repro navy.
I reload for other calibers using a Dillion 550b, I don't have a RockChucker to reload .577/450, it's too tall for my current press. As little as I'm able to get out and shoot anymore I just haven't bothered with it. I used to shoot USPSA and I would load several thousand rounds a month for practice and 7.62 for my M14 for CMP shoots.
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Loading BP in a cartridge made for it like the .45 LC is a piece of cake. It's almost impossible to 'overload' with BP because the origonal round was made for BP. Use the appropriate granulation, FFg or FFFg and a regular pistol primer. Measure the distance from the bullet's crimp groove with a dial caliper and fill the case up to the level of the bullet's base. Presto! It's safely loaded. I load 44 and 357 mags with BP all the time for a local match. The basics of BP reloading are far less complicated than any of the smokeless powders. BP can be measured by volume, it's low energy compared to smokeless powders and much safer.
Thought somewhere I read that the old 45 LC was not filled so full. In fact, if I recall correctly, the story went that users would hold the pistol upright before firing so that the powder would be sure to run down to the primer area. Did I misread? - certainly could have!
Edit: Oops! Think I did get the story mixed up. Believe it was shooters who previously used black powder cartridges, switched to smokeless, than had to hold the pistol up to make sure the powder got down to the primer area!!! Attests to oldbluelight's info!
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Actually black powder performs best if slightly compressed. In my 45-70 for long range target loads, I use a special "compression" die to compress the powder charge so that there will be room for an over powder wad ( I use a disk punched out of file folder stock) and a grease wad between the card wad and the bullet base.
It is generally agreed that if black powder is not at least slightly compressed it will detonate and the quick pressure surges can acutally create rings in the chamber. Thinking about this I always make sure my loads are compressed. Even loading my muzzle loader, a neat little 36 cal Southern Mountain rifle, I make sure the charge is compressed
It is generally agreed that if black powder is not at least slightly compressed it will detonate and the quick pressure surges can acutally create rings in the chamber. Thinking about this I always make sure my loads are compressed. Even loading my muzzle loader, a neat little 36 cal Southern Mountain rifle, I make sure the charge is compressed
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- #13
John, the need to position smokeless powder in the case relates directly to the energy differences between BP and modern smokeless powders. The old BP cartridges have significantly more volume than most modern cases. They needed plenty of room for substantial charges of low energy powder and often the BP was compressed. In addition most of the original arms did not use modern steels and their designs were not substanial enough to handle the pressure levels generated by large charges of smokeless. Trapdoor Springfields and Stevens are good examples. In order to use the arms safely and keep the pressures low many loads were worked out with relatively fast smokeless powders that are normally used in modern pistol and shotgun loads. The possibility of the powder shifting away from the primer flash in the case could lead to hangfires and to a much more serious problem called detonation where the smokeless powder does not burn progressively as designed but actually explodes poducing very high pressures that are capable of destroying even a modern firearm. The original 45 Long Colt BP load and the 45 ACP developed for smokeless are very similar ballistically but the differnce in case volume is a perfect example.
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