Below The Tie - Below The Crowd

[nuclearblast]

I'm surprised. In theory at least, I don't know how the thin stamped metal baseplates could not get bent (at least a little) after decades of use. One of the aspects I like about CNC machined (and sintered) razors is that the components seem too thick to get bent out of shape....

Shawn, I'm not so sure about that.

Old Types are quite resistant, just the other day I made a devette out of an old 102A head and it was surprisingly not easy to snap off its teeth with a pair of pliers. New Improved and NEW baseplates are also quite sturdy. You might have issues with some TTOs, bent safety bars or bent door assemblies, but as I said, I've never had an issue with the TTOs I've purchased.

Considering the millions and millions of razors out there and the number of issues reported, I'd say flawed razors are indeed much rarer than one might think.

Techs do have thin baseplates, especially the ones made in the '60s and '70s, or some examples made during war periods. I don't have a lot of experience with Techs, but the examples I have are perfectly fine.

 

[coase]

I think that if someone worried about vintages, that he should buy a good user razor from someone on B&B. That can then be sent off to Razorplate or Sport Shaving to be replated. That's what I did with two excellent but fading user razors I got off the classifieds. And the cost with replating for both was less than a single AT&T.

But I think for most forumites, that uncertainty isn't the issue. The modern shavers usually tend to be more suited to those who prefer aggressive shaves (with the Feather being a prominent exception). The old vintages have a wide range but tend to be milder than either the Merkur adjustables or the stainless steel razors.

 

[cwnidog]

That's great. And as you point out, the relationship between $$$ and the quality of the shave is really pretty tenuous. One of my best shavers is a 1956 Red Tip that's missing its end caps, I paid all of $7 for it at the Brimfield (MA) Antiques Fair a few years ago. I can honestly say that a shave with it will pass inspection on any parade ground that I've ever stood on.

And you've convinced me that I need to try that Feather.

Well, it arrived on Tuesday and I gave it a test ride today. Given that it was my first shave with a new type of razor, I'd have to say it did pretty well for itself - no problems that a few more shaves won't iron out. I will note that this razor is light​, but that it's long handle accommodates for the low weight. And yeah, it is quite mild. But, on the whole, a good little shaver.

 

[heysi]

Here is a pic of mine. I just wish I had bought a bigger brush.

Here's a couple pics of my Hoffritz.

View attachment 575088View attachment 575089

The knot looks the same but the handles....not so much. Mine has been in daily use since 1990 so it has some battle scars. Still I wouldn't trade it for the world. Considering my wife probably paid $20 for it back then, I'd say I've gotten off nice and cheaply, brush-wise. And seeing as how I just paid for my first puck of soap that wasn't $2 at the CVS, I'm still ahead cost wise. Now if only I can get my RAD under control......

 

[Leonard]

^what a handle

Coming from the perspective of a minimalist myself, & a huge fan of the feather popular and even $3 Chinese gillette techs, I just can't recall ever coming across a single post around here where anyone claimed one needed to splurge on high end razors & soaps etc. in order to get a great shave.

Straw man arguments are below the belt.

Below the tie

 

[RevAvery]

^what a handle

Coming from the perspective of a minimalist myself, & a huge fan of the feather popular and even $3 Chinese gillette techs, I just can't recall ever coming across a single post around here where anyone claimed one needed to splurge on high end razors & soaps etc. in order to get a great shave.

Straw man arguments are below the belt.

Not sure if I need to reply for clarification ... but, I will

Before I wrote this I had considered it might be taken this way. That wasn't where I was wanting this to go.

Simply put ...

1. I too don't recall anywhere on this site where I've read that you need expensive equipment to get a good shave ... although, it might be fair to say it has been implied, possibly?

2. I personally was happy to realize (and hoped others searching for a great shave would too) that a great shave could take place with basic, good, inexpensive equipment.

3. That part of the joy in this hobby is the purchase of additional, better (crafted and looks), and just plain 'ole different items.

So ... I wasn't trying to set up a straw man argument -- though if taken that way I am sorry and do apologize.

Who knows, if opportunity presents itself, I too might buy an ATT Feather -- but I'll still probably remain a BTT type guy

 

[shawnsel]

Coming from the perspective of a minimalist myself, & a huge fan of the feather popular and even $3 Chinese gillette techs, I just can't recall ever coming across a single post around here where anyone claimed one needed to splurge on high end razors & soaps etc. in order to get a great shave.

Straw man arguments are below the belt.

In case this is in regard to my posts ... I am NOT claiming that one needs to splurge on a high end razor to get a great shave (and as for soaps ... I shave with just water ... so hardly a splurge there). Again, my $4 RiMei is my second favorite razor (of 7 razors owned).

My argument is simply that IMHO, many non-collectors (although certainly not all) may find a better value in getting a precise, durable, and aggression-customizable razor as their first or second razor purchase. It would have saved me over $200 in now unused razors. Plus, when you add up the long-term savings over cartridges or electric razors, even the expensive DE razors are really pretty cheap.

 

[shawnsel]

3. That part of the joy in this hobby is the purchase of additional, better (crafted and looks), and just plain 'ole different items.

Well said. And as was pointed out to me later in your thread ... this is an aspect that (as a minimalist) my earlier posts were not taking into account.

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[Leonard]

In case this is in regard to my posts ... I am NOT claiming that one needs to splurge on a high end razor to get a great shave (and as for soaps ... I shave with just water ... so hardly a splurge there). Again, my $4 RiMei is my second favorite razor (of 7 razors owned).

My argument is simply that IMHO, many non-collectors (although certainly not all) may find a better value in getting a precise, durable, and aggression-customizable razor as their first or second razor purchase. It would have saved me over $200 in now unused razors. Plus, when you add up the long-term savings over cartridges or electric razors, even the expensive DE razors are really pretty cheap.

As that remains consistent with my never having read a post claiming one needs high end shaving products to get a great shave.

 

[musicman1951]

I agree that you don't need to spend a lot for a great shave. I had many great shaves with my first razor - the ubiquitous EJ89. I purchased a Tech because I was tired of being the one one on the forum without a vintage Gillette! I've also had plenty of great shaves from that razor. Then I was lured into purchasing a Mergress by all the glowing posts. It was more expensive and provided me with more consistently great shaves. Could be a coincidence.

Years later I purchased an ATT set. Considerably more expensive and even more consistent great shaves. Could still be a coincidence. I absolutely could have stayed with my first razor (assuming my AD up and left) and had many excellent shaves. I can't say my life experience is richer because my BBS shaves and comfort have increased a small percentage. I can definitely say that the small percentage will not justify the increase in price unless you happen to be a person who finds some joy in that small increase. I, unfortunately, happen to be one of those people. I'm a daily shaver and I truly enjoy my equipment every day.

I have a couple of expensive brushes, and the Kent BK8 is wonderful. But my usual choice is an SOC boar - which is waaaaaaaaaaay cheaper than the Kent. So this is an area where more expensive didn't bring me better lather.

Cream, on the other hand, has been for me almost a straight line between quality and price. I have very good $11 creams, better $25 creams and Castle Forbes - which is way better than the rest. In a cream longevity study I found that (because of the difference in containers and required amount of product) Castle Forbes cost me less than a penny a day over Proraso. So quality and value often go beyond the initial price.

Unfortunately, I recently found the same thing for soap. I just tried my first expensive soap - ABC at $59 - and it is considerably better than all my other soaps. Is it worth the price? Probably not - especially as a little over half the price is shipping - but it's some wonderful stuff. It also requires very little product.

So, is more expensive automatically better? Absolutely not. Is a Benz better than a Ford? Absolutely. Is it three times better? This is where the rubber hits the road for decision making. How much are you willing to spend for a modest improvement?

I have the deepest respect (and envy) for someone who can say he gets great shaves from the stuff currently in the den and has no intention of trying anything else - my son still uses his only razor, brush and original brand of cream. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But let's not pretend that there is only one level of quality and every expensive product is just about marketing and purchased by fools. Millions of people happily drive Ford's, but they don't all think the Benz driving next to them is the same car with a better PR team.

 

[mr_eleven]

Straw man arguments are below the belt.

You know, I didn't get this at all. I've followed this thread from the beginning and there's no opponent or argument here. Just the spirit of fun, and our shared opinions and different views on how what why where and when, blade meets skin.
That's all.

 

[hrfdez]

I think people should buy and use what they please. Who am I to tell anyone how to spend their money, right?

This may sound harsh, but just because someone chooses to be a minimalist, it doesn't mean I have to. I don't like preachers just as I don't like to preach.

That's below the tie IMO.

 

[hrfdez]

You know, I didn't get this at all. I've followed this thread from the beginning and there's no opponent or argument here. Just the spirit of fun, and our shared opinions and different views on how what why where and when, blade meets skin.
That's all.

Well said!

 

[glm38]

I agree that you don't need to spend a lot for a great shave. I had many great shaves with my first razor - the ubiquitous EJ89. I purchased a Tech because I was tired of being the one one on the forum without a vintage Gillette! I've also had plenty of great shaves from that razor. Then I was lured into purchasing a Mergress by all the glowing posts. It was more expensive and provided me with more consistently great shaves. Could be a coincidence.

Years later I purchased an ATT set. Considerably more expensive and even more consistent great shaves. Could still be a coincidence. I absolutely could have stayed with my first razor (assuming my AD up and left) and had many excellent shaves. I can't say my life experience is richer because my BBS shaves and comfort have increased a small percentage. I can definitely say that the small percentage will not justify the increase in price unless you happen to be a person who finds some joy in that small increase. I, unfortunately, happen to be one of those people. I'm a daily shaver and I truly enjoy my equipment every day.

I have a couple of expensive brushes, and the Kent BK8 is wonderful. But my usual choice is an SOC boar - which is waaaaaaaaaaay cheaper than the Kent. So this is an area where more expensive didn't bring me better lather.

Cream, on the other hand, has been for me almost a straight line between quality and price. I have very good $11 creams, better $25 creams and Castle Forbes - which is way better than the rest. In a cream longevity study I found that (because of the difference in containers and required amount of product) Castle Forbes cost me less than a penny a day over Proraso. So quality and value often go beyond the initial price.

Unfortunately, I recently found the same thing for soap. I just tried my first expensive soap - ABC at $59 - and it is considerably better than all my other soaps. Is it worth the price? Probably not - especially as a little over half the price is shipping - but it's some wonderful stuff. It also requires very little product.

So, is more expensive automatically better? Absolutely not. Is a Benz better than a Ford? Absolutely. Is it three times better? This is where the rubber hits the road for decision making. How much are you willing to spend for a modest improvement?

I have the deepest respect (and envy) for someone who can say he gets great shaves from the stuff currently in the den and has no intention of trying anything else - my son still uses his only razor, brush and original brand of cream. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But let's not pretend that there is only one level of quality and every expensive product is just about marketing and purchased by fools. Millions of people happily drive Ford's, but they don't all think the Benz driving next to them is the same car with a better PR team.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Some people are frugal and some aren't. But in de shaving and cars I think it's a given that higher cost doesn't always equate to higher quality.

In the automotive realm a better comparison to me would be to compare a Benz to a Toyota. Is the Benz more luxurious? Absolutely. By that metric it's higher quality. But by a reliability metric the much cheaper Toyota is higher quality. It just depends on what you want and value. And can afford. I could afford a Benz but I value Toyota reliability higher.

You can make similar parallels in de shaving in regards to razors, soaps, brushes, etc. My point is people should buy and use what they value and can afford.

 

[hrfdez]

It is a far fetched comparison that of shaving vs. cars? Not even close, but I get your point

 

[glm38]

It is a far fetched comparison that of shaving vs. cars? Not even close, but I get your point

I'm not the one that brought up the comparison of de shaving to cars? I was just responding to it. I agree with you it's certainly not an exact parallel.

 

[hrfdez]

I'm not the one that brought up the comparison of de shaving to cars? I was just responding to it. I agree with you it's certainly not an exact parallel.

Oops! My bad. It didn't include the original statement, sorry buddy.

 

[glm38]

Oops! My bad. It didn't include the original statement, sorry buddy.

No apology needed. I didn't take offense at all.

 

[cwnidog]

You know, I didn't get this at all. I've followed this thread from the beginning and there's no opponent or argument here. Just the spirit of fun, and our shared opinions and different views on how what why where and when, blade meets skin.
That's all.

That's just what I got out of it, as well. Ok, that and a new razor.

 

[Copierguy]

**Edit**

3. Durable. This one is more of a personal preference thing, as added durability of stainless steel over zinc alloys may or may not be in itself worth the added costs. That said ... CNC (and even MIM or sintering) manufacturers typically work with either stainless steel or aluminum. Very precise tolerances is usually paired with expensive materials ... because the raw expensive material ends up being a trivial amount of the product's final price.

I will also add here that I don't understand why Feather adds chrome plating to their AS-D2. The chrome will likely eventually scratch and make DIY repairs infeasible. Also, it is conceivable that a scratch in the chrome could facilitate corrosion of the stainless steel underneath. This same confusion/concern also applies to iKon and their coatings (even before they were black ... most of their models have had a coating/plating of some sort). I believe this coating/plating is applied to MIM/sintered razors due to aesthetic reasons ... but regardless ... I believe it makes the razor overall less durable.

NOTE: I have seen photos of iKon razors in prototype that are CNC machined and unplated ... so it is possible that future models may not have this concern.

**Edit**
Thanks,
Shawn

I believe Feather added the finish to avoid the rust issue that ATT razors have.