Bad stropping?

[pmaster]

I've had the Big Daddy strop for a little while now. I had trouble getting used to the larger size (3 inches) compared to the 2inch strop from Whipped Dog. Now I'm pretty sure I got the hang of it after a while, and its actually quite nice. I hung the strop on the hanger bar in the closet, so I go up and down when I strop.

I have been suspecting for a little while however, that the strop may not be working as it should. It even led me to leave it aside for the last 4-5 shaves and go back to the Whipped Dog strop.

Yesterday when I tried honing on the Zulu, I was getting some ok HHT after just 5-6 laps on the whipped dog strop. I thought OK, I'll go over to the Big Daddy, did 60 on felt, 60 on leather, came back, no more HHT!!

So, it would seem there is definitely something wrong with my stropping on the big daddy (I now realize this must have been part of the problem on some of my previous honings).

I'm trying to figure out where to hang it so it is lower, hopefully that will help. Anyone has similar experiences?

 

[The Don]

Stropping is an area of needed improvement for me as well, so I'll be interested to hear how you progress through this problem. I'll just throw a few questions out to see if any resonate with you.

• Is the strop getting twisted?
• Are you keeping it taut?
• How much pressure are you using?
• Is there any debris on either the leather or cotton component?
• Are you keeping the spine on the surface the entire time?
• Is the strop nicked or cut in any places?
• Is the leather sufficiently moisturized?
• Do you turn the razor with your wrist, or do you rotate it in your fingers?

 

[pmaster]

Stropping is an area of needed improvement for me as well, so I'll be interested to hear how you progress through this problem. I'll just throw a few questions out to see if any resonate with you.

• Is the strop getting twisted? : Yes, often
• Are you keeping it taut?: Yes (but im starting to wonder if its enough!)
• How much pressure are you using? Average, about the same as the whipped dog strop (which doesn't give me any problems)
• Is there any debris on either the leather or cotton component?: Hmm, don't think so but I should check again.
• Are you keeping the spine on the surface the entire time? Yup
• Is the strop nicked or cut in any places? None so far on the new strop
• Is the leather sufficiently moisturized? Hmm not 100% sure, might be a little dry, but it has more draw than the other strop I have.
• Do you turn the razor with your wrist, or do you rotate it in your fingers? Fingers, but sometimes wrist if my fingers won't do the trick (depending on the scales)

I will try to be careful next time I strop with it and ensure there is no rolling whatsoever, since its the only possibility I can see. The whipped dog strop is shorter so I imagine that lessens the possibilities of the strop being not taut enough.

Its kind of annoying though, I thought I was doing a good job prior to this experience :-/

I may also start by only using the leather side for a while, see if the felt side isn't part of the problem (though I'm not sure why it could be).

 

[Wid]

The felt imo is only good to use with either crox or diamond. As a stand alone second I didn't care for it.

 

[pmaster]

The felt imo is only good to use with either crox or diamond. As a stand alone second I didn't care for it.

After searching a bit more, maybe its not my stropping that is the problem: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/314988-Big-Daddy-Question

Seems someone else also had the razor dull after going on the felt side. I will try leather-only for my next razors and see if the problem is solved.

If so, I'll think about adding diamond spray or chrox on the felt-side. (Its still a mystery to me that it might actually dull the razor though?)

 

[Alum of Potash]

What color is your Big Daddy? The reason I ask is because the black is a bit coarser, for knives, with the burgundy and the chestnut being finer, for razors.

 

[pmaster]

Ah....
I have the black latigo one... :-/

 

[Alum of Potash]

That may be the problem then. It's unfortunate that the difference isn't explained on the Star Shaving site when ordering. So, basically, the black strop functions like a prep strop, or closer to 0.5 micron crox. I actually ordered one for this reason and can tell you that the surfaces (black versus burgundy, Big Mammas in my case) are very different. So in the short run, use the black latigo as a prep, 20-30 laps or so, followed by 40-60 laps on the Whipped Dog, until things are improved. Once they are, stop using the black latigo until the razor starts to tug, and then go back to 20-30 laps followed by 40-60 laps Whipped Dog. As always, YMMV, but that in essence, is how it works. The felt, without paste, is more or less neutral. When I use it, it's for 3-6 laps or so after shaving, to function as a towel. Its intended purpose is to hold pastes as an occasional prep, but the black latigo will supersede this.

 

[pmaster]

That may be the problem then. It's unfortunate that the difference isn't explained on the Star Shaving site when ordering. So, basically, the black strop functions like a prep strop, or closer to 0.5 micron crox. I actually ordered one for this reason and can tell you that the surfaces (black versus burgundy, Big Mammas in my case) are very different. So in the short run, use the black latigo as a prep, 20-30 laps or so, followed by 40-60 laps on the Whipped Dog, until things are improved. Once they are, stop using the black latigo until the razor starts to tug, and then go back to 20-30 laps followed by 40-60 laps Whipped Dog. As always, YMMV, but that in essence, is how it works. The felt, without paste, is more or less neutral. When I use it, it's for 3-6 laps or so after shaving, to function as a towel. Its intended purpose is to hold pastes as an occasional prep, but the black latigo will supersede this.

Thanks a lot for the info. I really had no idea about this (and no clue that a leather strop could be almost as rough as chromium oxide!). Well, if it acts similar to a pasted strop I guess all is not lost, might as well use it as such. I will keep this in mind and test a few combinations of laps to see how it acts with the edge.

How do you like using it this way (to refresh the edge)? Does it do a good job at it?

 

[Gamma]

I've always been somewhat confused and somewhat suspicious of that company's 'grit-assignements' for their leathers.

To begin with - I have a hard time understanding the concept, maybe their tanning process has abrasives in it?

After that - the OP lost HHT after using the 50-60k strop.
Lets say crox on HH was used instead - lets assume that surface to be 30-60k depending on who's chart/crox/etc - would the OP have lost the HHT after that also?
Seems to me that Crox usually bumps sharpness up, not down so I have doubts about the black Latigo being an issue unless there's something else going on.

Since I never had a Star Shaving strop, I can't doubt anyone else's findings; it just that it all seems illogical to me.

 

[Alum of Potash]

I just reread an old e-mail that Ron from Star Shaving sent me a while back. There, he rated his crox strop at 50,000x, the black latigo at 60,000x, and the chestnut or burgundy at 90,000x, with diamonds somewhere in between. How he arrives at these ratings, I don't know. My interest in the black strop was that I had been using the burgundy strop for 40 laps followed by 60 laps on a slick vintage Russian shell strop and been having nice results there. And as the black strop did not ostensibly carry a paste, that made it appear cleaner than having to wipe off the blade when using pastes. Ultimately, what I was trying to achieve was a "poor-man's" Kanayama strop, featuring a "prep" leather surface (black) and a "finish" leather surface (burgundy).

Speaking from limited experience with the black strop, I cannot say that I prefer it to my small pasted loom strop as a refresher; and it has never improved the HHT on its own in a progression off the stones like the pasted strop has. The grain of the black surface is coarser and has more draw than the burgundy surface, the latter being tighter; and the black strop is also less supple in comparison. Having read your most recent post (pmaster), I have tried 20 laps on the black strop and it diminished the HHT like you mentioned in your first post. But 60 laps on the vintage Russian shell then brought the edge back, perhaps slightly improved. From this, I conclude that the black strop basically functions like vintage firehose linen--not an end in and of itself, or in a continuing progression, but to be used in tandem with another strop, if used with razors rather than knives. So maybe the "poor-man's" Kanayama effect is indeed achieved in this regard. With continued use and wear, the black strop will probably tone down a bit, but that is how I would use it for starters: 6-30 light laps to remove gunk and open up the edge a little bit, followed by 60 laps on a slicker strop to close the edge. Again, it is intended for knives, and it is too bad that this is not made clear on the Website description at present.

Don't know what your Whipped Dog strop is like, but it sounds like it is working out for you for the time being and the black SS strop could then be used as a prep in this way. If you would still be looking for a wider strop, then there are of course more expensive alternatives to the burgundy and chestnut SS strops, which many find work well all the same. For a slicker, inexpensive strop, perhaps the Illinois 361 (2-1/2" wide, with barber's square-cut end) might work. As received from the factory, the Illinois strop is stiff as a board. But with repeated applications of olive oil (1/4-1/2 tsp. applied along the strop's length, then rubbed in with the palm of the hand), I have found it becomes suppler and nicer, but still not the greatest. (Note: some will say not to use olive oil, as it will become rancid. This has not been my experience thus far, and I know of two companies who treat their strops with olive oil for use at a professional level. That said, I am not advocating putting olive oil on any strop other than an IRSCO 361 for the time being.)

 

[pmaster]

I just reread an old e-mail that Ron from Star Shaving sent me a while back. There, he rated his crox strop at 50,000x, the black latigo at 60,000x, and the chestnut or burgundy at 90,000x, with diamonds somewhere in between. How he arrives at these ratings, I don't know. My interest in the black strop was that I had been using the burgundy strop for 40 laps followed by 60 laps on a slick vintage Russian shell strop and been having nice results there. And as the black strop did not ostensibly carry a paste, that made it appear cleaner than having to wipe off the blade when using pastes.

Speaking from limited experience with the black strop, I cannot say that I prefer it to my small pasted loom strop as a refresher; and it has never improved the HHT on its own in a progression off the stones like the pasted strop has. The grain of the black surface is coarser than the burgundy surface, the latter being tighter, and the black strop is also less supple in comparison. Having read your most recent post (pmaster), I have tried 20 laps on the black strop and it diminished the HHT like you mentioned in your first post. But 60 laps on the vintage Russian shell then brought the edge back, perhaps slightly improved. From this, I conclude that the black strop basically functions like vintage firehose linen--not an end in and of itself, or in a continuing progression, but to be used in tandem with another strop. With continued use and wear, it will probably tone down a bit, but that is how I would use it for starters: 6-30 light laps to remove gunk and open up the edge a little bit, followed by 60 laps on a slicker strop to close the edge. Again, it is intended for knives, and it is too bad that this is not made clear on the Website description.

Don't know what your Whipped Dog strop is like, but if you would be looking for a wider, slicker strop on the cheap, then perhaps the Illinois 361 (2-1/2" wide, with barber's square-cut end) might work. As received from the factory, the strop is stiff as a board. But with repeated applications of olive oil (1/4-1/2 tsp. applied along the strop's length, then rubbed in with the palm of the hand) it becomes suppler and nicer. (Note: some will say not to use olive oil, as it will become rancid. This has not been my experience thus far, and I know of two companies who treat their strops with olive oil for use at a professional level.)

Thank you very much for your answer and testing. Its good to know my stropping was possibly not the problem and you get similar results. And yes, I think its kinda sad that the strop is not better described on the Star Shaving website. Had I known, I would've bought the burgundy. From what I read on the description there, it is sold as a strop for razors knives and more... Then again, I've also seen a lot of people who mention buying and using the latigo strop as their main strop, so who knows.

All of that said, I'll try to do some more tests of my own and report back. I'm puzzled as to how a strop could make the HHT worst than before, but maybe?

I don't think I'll spring for another strop yet, I've spent way too much in the last few months, and the WD strop is still doing the job, but I'll keep the Illinois in mind.

 

[pmaster]

I've always been somewhat confused and somewhat suspicious of that company's 'grit-assignements' for their leathers.

To begin with - I have a hard time understanding the concept, maybe their tanning process has abrasives in it?

After that - the OP lost HHT after using the 50-60k strop.
Lets say crox on HH was used instead - lets assume that surface to be 30-60k depending on who's chart/crox/etc - would the OP have lost the HHT after that also?
Seems to me that Crox usually bumps sharpness up, not down so I have doubts about the black Latigo being an issue unless there's something else going on.

Since I never had a Star Shaving strop, I can't doubt anyone else's findings; it just that it all seems illogical to me.

I am puzzled as well, to be honest, thus why I was thinking my stropping ability was the problem (still a possibility which I will make sure to address).

First things first I think I'll stop with the felt, and keep it in mind for when I buy some diamond spray. Then I'll try to see where the black latigo fits in relation to crox and my other strop. One thing's for sure, crox has never reduced the HHT I get, only made it better (though it has often felt less sharp to my face).

 

[pmaster]

So, I had a bit more time and did some tests tonight with a razor that was passing HHT fairly well.

Test1: 30 laps on the black latigo
Result: HHT seemed pretty much similar to before.

Test2: 30 more laps on black latigo.
Result: Mayyyyyybe slight change, not sure, but definitely no improvement.

Test 3: 60 laps on felt
result: no more hht

Test4: 60 laps on latigo
result: same

test5: 40-50 laps on whipped dog strop
result: passes HHT barely on a few spots, but couldn't bring it back like it was before (even after a ton more laps).

So... for the moment, my conclusion is that the felt is a no-go. It clearly dulls the blade. Is that even logical?? Even if its meant to be used with paste, is shouldn't degrade the edge when used without?

Concerning the black latigo, im not sure if it helps at all. My feeling is that it doesn't change much. It has a lot more draw than the WD strop, but I'll have to test with another razor fresh off the hones to see if stropping on it helps anything.

 

[Eric62]

I also have the strop "BIG DADDY" Strop I brought from shaving supplies with a canvas back now i have read on other sites that this strop is not that brilliant I am quite willing to get better one but i don't which one?? ( I am no expert on this on this sort of thing ) It must be 3" wide and should it have a canvas back Can buy from USA ( ! want a good one) if needed many thanks PS what is the canvas side for anyway

 

[pmaster]

I also have the strop "BIG DADDY" Strop I brought from shaving supplies with a canvas back now i have read on other sites that this strop is not that brilliant I am quite willing to get better one but i don't which one?? ( I am no expert on this on this sort of thing ) It must be 3" wide and should it have a canvas back Can buy from USA ( ! want a good one) if needed many thanks PS what is the canvas side for anyway

Can't help you there, I am also wondering about getting another strop. However it annoys me since I purchased the Big Daddy thinking I'd be all set, but the latigo doesn't seem to do much to the blade edge. I'll probably stick with my current setup for a while.

I wrote to Star Shaving to ask them about the felt-side dulling up my razors. Hopefully they write back. I am not sure about even trying it with any pastes since if it dulls the razor when nothing is applied, why would using paste solve that issue?

 

[jeff_C]

I have that same black strop from Star so this interests me as well. I also started with the whipped dog poor mans strop.

Would the black vs burgandy vs brown star strops really make THAT much of a difference? Even by their admission you arent talking about THAT big of a difference.

Now for the felt... maybe thats an issue. After a shave i do about 30 passes on felt, then 30 on leather. Then I always do 30 passes on leather before a shave. So I strop before and after a shave. My razors all seem pretty good on that black latigo. Then about every 2-3 months I re strop on balsa with pastes. Seems to work for me.

Id be interested in reading more comments on this strop and also hearing what they have to say.

 

[pmaster]

I have that same black strop from Star so this interests me as well. I also started with the whipped dog poor mans strop.

Would the black vs burgandy vs brown star strops really make THAT much of a difference? Even by their admission you arent talking about THAT big of a difference.

I'm wondering the same thing. I'll do some more tests next time I hone on the naniwa 3/8k. Usually, stropping improves the HHT I get from the 8k, so next time, I'll use only the latigo instead of the WD and see what I get.

Now for the felt... maybe thats an issue. After a shave i do about 30 passes on felt, then 30 on leather. Then I always do 30 passes on leather before a shave. So I strop before and after a shave. My razors all seem pretty good on that black latigo. Then about every 2-3 months I re strop on balsa with pastes. Seems to work for me.

Id be interested in reading more comments on this strop and also hearing what they have to say.

If I did fewer laps on the felt, I imagine the impact wouldn't be as important, thus harder to see, but possibly still there. That's why I did 60 of them. At the moment I'm trying to decide if I'll put some diamond spray on the felt, or just ignore it completely.

 

[jeff_C]

Im going to be honest... if the Latigo is not a good strop for everyday stropping of STRAIGHT RAZORS, Im going to be really ticked.

I bought that strop because of the solid reviews and the desire for a moderately priced strop that would last a lifetime. If there are major differences in the performance he needs to state that on his site. I fell for the "if it costs more it must be better" thought. The Latigo Big Daddy was a few bucks more than the others. If its not good for everyday RAZOR (As stated in their comments) use Star Shaving will be hearing from me. I too have a note into them.

But deep down I suspect the strop is fine. Ive been using it for weeks.

 

[Giant Kiwi]

I have the chestnut big daddy and it seems just fine to me.
I have found however the felt component dulls my razor so after shaving my razor gets a few laps on felt and nothing more.
Pre-shave stropping has not been a problem for now and I've had mine for roughly about a year and a bit (that's the technical answer)
It gets a palm rub down each day and a strop dressing occasionally