A Trip to Wales

[cotedupy]

The United Kingdom, perhaps even moreso than Japan, can lay claim to having the greatest breadth, depth, and sheer number of historically quarried whetstones of any nation on earth. And the jewel in the crown of The Union is, undoubtedly: Wales!

From the Cambrian silkstones of the south, to the sandstones of Gwespyr and Waun y Llyn on the northern coast, via the blue slates of Aberllefenni, the green and purple stones of the Nantlle Valley, and the famous novaculites found alongside - nowhere else in the world will you encounter such variety of traditional honestones in such a small geographical area as there are here.

Better go to Wales then...

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My primary objective was to establish for certain the origin of the Nantlle Valley Stone, which I had spent some time researching previously. Information on the ground had the Dorothea quarry at Talysarn as a likely candidate, so we positioned ourselves there. And the task proved somewhat easier than expected, we had arrived at night (Wales has effectively no motorways), but going out for a breakfast cigarette in the morning I saw this.

That's basically a massive slab of Nantlle Valley whetstone on the outside wall of our Airbnb. So there we go: the Nantlle Valley Stone is from Dorothea. But we hadn't come to Wales to steal bits of people's houses, not when the quarry is but a couple of minutes walk away.

Dorothea is stunningly beautiful, now flooded as a lake*, set within an old forest full of crumbling, overgrown, buildings from the works there. And there is slate bloody everywhere.

* There are actually a couple of pits at Dorothea, the picture here is of the smaller, I seem not to have taken a picture of the larger one. I was probably too excited by all the slate.


[TBC...]

 

[cotedupy]

So it turns out that the stone at Dorothea it quite varied; the large majority is purple, but within that are seams of green rock, sometimes thick, sometimes thin.

I tried to pick up as much variety as I could, including some pre-cut pieces I found in one of the abandoned buildings above.

This next picture is a piece of typical Nantlle Valley Stone, a dark sea-green-blue colour with wavy black patterns. This seemed to be the least common type, though there was so much stone everywhere that it wasn't difficult to find anything.

And finally something that surprised me a little. This is slightly lighter coloured green stone, with pretty, black, crack-like patterns through it. Which is something you might normally associate with stones from the Glanrafon quarry(s), about seven miles away at the other end of the Nantlle Valley, but something similar is clearly found at Dorothea too. Like the type above it's a very hard stone, and fine enough for razor finishing.

The second picture below is a hone I cut today cut from the rock in the first pic. About 6x3", but so feckin hard that I gave up making it into a perfect rectangle.

[TBC...]

 

[SliceOfLife]

My wife and buddy both keep trying to get me to travel to Ireland/Scotland... may have to sneak a trip to wales in there too. Lovely place.

 

[Bowmaker]

The United Kingdom, perhaps even moreso than Japan, can lay claim to having the greatest breadth, depth, and sheer number of historically quarried whetstones of any nation on earth. And the jewel in the crown of The Union is, undoubtedly: Wales!

From the Cambrian silkstones of the south, to the sandstones of Gwespyr and Waun y Llyn on the northern coast, via the blue slates of Aberllefenni, the green and purple stones of the Nantlle Valley, and the famous novaculites found alongside - nowhere else in the world will you encounter such variety of traditional honestones in such a small geographical area as there are here.

Better go to Wales then...

---

My primary objective was to establish for certain the origin of the Nantlle Valley Stone, which I had spent some time researching previously. Information on the ground had the Dorothea quarry at Talysarn as a likely candidate, so we positioned ourselves there. And the task proved somewhat easier than expected, we had arrived at night (Wales has effectively no motorways), but going out for a breakfast cigarette in the morning I saw this.

View attachment 1597696


That's basically a massive slab of Nantlle Valley whetstone on the outside wall of our Airbnb. So there we go: the Nantlle Valley Stone is from Dorothea. But we hadn't come to Wales to steal bits of people's houses, not when the quarry is but a couple of minutes walk away.

Dorothea is stunningly beautiful, now flooded as a lake*, set within an old forest full of crumbling, overgrown, buildings from the works there. And there is slate bloody everywhere.

View attachment 1597731

View attachment 1597732

View attachment 1597733

View attachment 1597734




* There are actually a couple of pits at Dorothea, the picture here is of the smaller, I seem not to have taken a picture of the larger one. I was probably too excited by all the slate.


[TBC...]

Is that a gnarly old yew in the third picture from the top?
How old is that building?

 

[Frank Shaves]

Nice post!

 

[ErieSurfer]

The United Kingdom, perhaps even moreso than Japan, can lay claim to having the greatest breadth, depth, and sheer number of historically quarried whetstones of any nation on earth. And the jewel in the crown of The Union is, undoubtedly: Wales!

From the Cambrian silkstones of the south, to the sandstones of Gwespyr and Waun y Llyn on the northern coast, via the blue slates of Aberllefenni, the green and purple stones of the Nantlle Valley, and the famous novaculites found alongside - nowhere else in the world will you encounter such variety of traditional honestones in such a small geographical area as there are here.

Better go to Wales then...

---

My primary objective was to establish for certain the origin of the Nantlle Valley Stone, which I had spent some time researching previously. Information on the ground had the Dorothea quarry at Talysarn as a likely candidate, so we positioned ourselves there. And the task proved somewhat easier than expected, we had arrived at night (Wales has effectively no motorways), but going out for a breakfast cigarette in the morning I saw this.

View attachment 1597696


That's basically a massive slab of Nantlle Valley whetstone on the outside wall of our Airbnb. So there we go: the Nantlle Valley Stone is from Dorothea. But we hadn't come to Wales to steal bits of people's houses, not when the quarry is but a couple of minutes walk away.

Dorothea is stunningly beautiful, now flooded as a lake*, set within an old forest full of crumbling, overgrown, buildings from the works there. And there is slate bloody everywhere.

View attachment 1597731

View attachment 1597732

View attachment 1597733

View attachment 1597734




* There are actually a couple of pits at Dorothea, the picture here is of the smaller, I seem not to have taken a picture of the larger one. I was probably too excited by all the slate.


[TBC...]

That is a giant honing playground! I love it!

 

[cotedupy]

My wife and buddy both keep trying to get me to travel to Ireland/Scotland... may have to sneak a trip to wales in there too. Lovely place.

Strongly recommend it if you are over the pond at any point. Obviously large swathes of Ireland and Scotland are very beautiful too, but Snowdonia is right up there with the best of them. Feels very ancient; got a distinctly Arthurian, Gawain-and-the-Green-Knight vibe going on.

Is that a gnarly old yew in the third picture from the top?
How old is that building?

Don't ask difficult questions B!

Umm... I'm not so good on tree id-ing tbh, but could well be. I think old Yews do grow a bit like that don't they.

Probably really quite old. Dorothea operated from 1820 to the late 60s / early 70s, though there's no way these buildings had been used as recently as the end of that timespan. However like most quarries in the area it was an amalgamation of smaller previous pits, and I imagine the buildings around it date from then. I.e. pre 1820, probably sometime in the 1600s / 1700s.

That is a giant honing playground! I love it!

I was in my absolute element, as you can imagine! It's always nice getting from in and around actual quarries cos it's so consistent. I imagine every piece I picked up there will make for good whetstone material. Shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[cotedupy]

Onwards then, to Inigo Jones...

IJ are a longstanding quarrier and wholesaler of slate in the area, for many years they supplied AB Salmen with the blue Aberllefeni slate for Yellow Lake Oilstones, the same as their 'Dragon's Tongue' stone is made from today. And also, interestingly, sold stones to The Water of Ayr and Tam O'Shanter Hone Works at certain points.

Today Inigo Jones have a shop, workshop and cafe about 10 mins drive from Dorothea. The yard outside is covered with huge piles of slate from all sorts of different quarries, cut to any size and shape you can imagine. It's a complete treasure trove for the budding slate enthusiast!

You can see here a couple of large rough cut ornamental pieces that show some of the pretty patterns and differences in Dorothea stone.

It was Roger from Inigo Jones who I emailed about a year ago with pictures of my mysterious green whetstones, and told me they were from the Nantlle Valley, probably Dorothea. He's been working in the Welsh slate industry for over 50 years, so if there's something you want to know about slate - he's probably your man.

I spent about 20 mins wandering about with him chatting quarries and whetstones, while he recommended me various types. I'd grab likely looking pieces and at the end we went to the workshop shed and he cut them to spec for me.

I ended up with ten hones of various flavours for the princely sum of £45. Here are some of them:

Top:

Dragon's Tongue. This is the standard 8x2x0.5"I also got a double thickness custom cut for @ables. The modern DT stones I've had seem a little coarser and faster than the old YL versions. Maybe 6-7k.

L to R:

Penryhyn Heather Ruby. The purple-red Heather stones from the Penryhyn quarry in northern Snowdonia come in various flavours, and are apparently held in high regard as fine honestones. Just the previous week Roger had been cutting some for an order, I assume for a retailer. The Ruby is a fine grained and quite soft stone.

Penryhyn Heather Grey. The 'Grey' version is a typical purple-with-green-orbs type stone. It's noticeably harder than the Ruby and perhaps not quite as fine. This reminds me of the new La Lune stones.

2 x Cwt y Bugail. Roger was slightly quizzical that I asked for some pieces of this to be cut. It's a very fine grained, prettily patterned hard-ish grey slate. Relatively slow, though does still abrade. Very Thuri like - this is a seriously classy razor stone. Cwt y Bugail means 'the shepherd's hut', the quarry is on the other side of Snowdon, near Moel Siabod.

 

[cotedupy]

 

[Nik]

Cotedupy, I’m following this thread, very interesting stuff. I’m curious to hear about the ruby and grey slates, is it possible to order these from Inigo Jones if one asks nicely?

You mentioned Irish hones near the Devils punch bowl in a different thread. I’m in Ireland and it might be a fun trip to have a look. Do you know any more detail about the spot? Would there be an old quarry that might show up on an ordnance survey map?

 

[cotedupy]

Cotedupy, I’m following this thread, very interesting stuff. I’m curious to hear about the ruby and grey slates, is it possible to order these from Inigo Jones if one asks nicely?

You mentioned Irish hones near the Devils punch bowl in a different thread. I’m in Ireland and it might be a fun trip to have a look. Do you know any more detail about the spot? Would there be an old quarry that might show up on an ordnance survey map?

Yes, you can I think. I'm pretty certain that he'd been cutting some of those two stones the previous week for an order that had come via email. Ping Roger a message to the email address on the website and ask.

And sorry - it was 'Red' that I got, not 'Ruby'. I think there was a 'ruby' as well perhaps. I've also misspelt 'Penrhyn' in my post above!

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Umm there's not much more known about the Devil's Punchbowl stone afaik. If there is an old quarry then - yep, it would probably be marked on an OS map. Even the smallest holes in the ground are often marked: Quarry (dis.), but it may not have ever really been quarried as such.

Would be fascinating if you did manage to find it. Definitely grab me a chunk if you do!

 

[rideon66]

You mentioned Irish hones near the Devils punch bowl in a different thread. I’m in Ireland and it might be a fun trip to have a look. Do you know any more detail about the spot? Would there be an old quarry that might show up on an ordnance survey map?

I don't know that there is a quarry the account of Ireland statistical and political 1812 just says on the mountain near the lake called the Devil's Punch Bowl. The stones are bright Olive color and then boiled in oil after which they become darker more compact and smooth.

 

[Bowmaker]

Strongly recommend it if you are over the pond at any point. Obviously large swathes of Ireland and Scotland are very beautiful too, but Snowdonia is right up there with the best of them. Feels very ancient; got a distinctly Arthurian, Gawain-and-the-Green-Knight vibe going on.




Don't ask difficult questions B!

Umm... I'm not so good on tree id-ing tbh, but could well be. I think old Yews do grow a bit like that don't they.

Probably really quite old. Dorothea operated from 1820 to the late 60s / early 70s, though there's no way these buildings had been used as recently as the end of that timespan. However like most quarries in the area it was an amalgamation of smaller previous pits, and I imagine the buildings around it date from then. I.e. pre 1820, probably sometime in the 1600s / 1700s.




I was in my absolute element, as you can imagine! It's always nice getting from in and around actual quarries cos it's so consistent. I imagine every piece I picked up there will make for good whetstone material. Shooting fish in a barrel.

Sorry for going off topic. It's all very interesting to me, trees, buildings, rocks, history.
Great thread!

 

[cotedupy]

I don't know that there is a quarry the account of Ireland statistical and political 1812 just says on the mountain near the lake called the Devil's Punch Bowl. The stones are bright Olive color and then boiled in oil after which they become darker more compact and smooth.

Sounds like novaculite to me!

 

[cotedupy]

Sorry for going off topic. It's all very interesting to me, trees, buildings, rocks, history.
Great thread!

Oh not at all... I find the history of these places fascinating too. Just wish I knew more about UK trees (and timber) tbh!

 

[Bowmaker]

Cotedupy, I’m following this thread, very interesting stuff. I’m curious to hear about the ruby and grey slates, is it possible to order these from Inigo Jones if one asks nicely?

You mentioned Irish hones near the Devils punch bowl in a different thread. I’m in Ireland and it might be a fun trip to have a look. Do you know any more detail about the spot? Would there be an old quarry that might show up on an ordnance survey map?

Might those ponds just off the trail be quarry's?

 

[Mr Bedlington]

I'm 100% a Celtic Welshman born and bred, and yes there is slate eveywhere best place to look for quality slate would be a good salvage recyle yard, the better quality harder slate was use for ornate victorian fire places and surrounds, If you are interested in trees there are some incredibly rare and interesting trees in Wales, I live about 15 miles from St Cynogs Yew tree which is one of the oldest trees in the world, around 5000 years old, it was 2000 years old when they started building the Pyramids.
The Defynnog Yew – the eternal wonder of one of Britain’s oldest trees - https://undiscovered-wales.co.uk/2020/08/02/the-defynnog-yew-the-eternal-wonder-of-one-of-britains-oldest-trees/

 

[Nik]

Yes, you can I think. I'm pretty certain that he'd been cutting some of those two stones the previous week for an order that had come via email. Ping Roger a message to the email address on the website and ask.

And sorry - it was 'Red' that I got, not 'Ruby'. I think there was a 'ruby' as well perhaps. I've also misspelt 'Penrhyn' in my post above!

View attachment 1598270

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Umm there's not much more known about the Devil's Punchbowl stone afaik. If there is an old quarry then - yep, it would probably be marked on an OS map. Even the smallest holes in the ground are often marked: Quarry (dis.), but it may not have ever really been quarried as such.

Would be fascinating if you did manage to find it. Definitely grab me a chunk if you do!

Cheers. I’ll wait for your report back on the slates first though. Learning some cotis at the moment. One of my first stones was a cheap, purple welsh slate that I foolishly gave away when I started on coticules, it was a ridiculously easy finisher for a beginner.

Ill just take an OS map out for a walk in the summer sometime if i catch some good weather. No harm looking, might get lucky. Certainly I’ll take a few extra chunks if I get lucky.

if it’s likely a novaculite, would a raw stone look similar to the unlapped sides of charnley forests i have admired so many pictures of?

 

[cotedupy]

And here’s why I got myself another Dragon’s Tongue. To make a combi with a thin piece of Nantlle Valley stone I got last year in an ebay-mystery-whetstone punt.

A perfect Welsh prefinisher x finisher.

 

[Nik]

Might those ponds just off the trail be quarry's?

Might be, I’m no expert at all, dont even know if novaculite has any other uses other than sharpening, if no, it was probably just locals who knew where to look. Lots of sections of exposed stone face and around the lakes and streams where they’ll have been washed a bit cleaner to look at. Funnily enough the video does give me the idea to look at the summit cairn, people will have brought those stones from around the area.