New Member - Coticule Info Request

[stringer bean]

Hello,
I'm from Boston. I'm a pro chef and (very) amateur knife maker. I bought a straight razor a month ago because I figured I already had everything I needed to keep it sharp and I'm tired of razor burn from cartridges. I keep a full beard so I mostly just shave my neck. After a few weeks of reading and learning and honing stropping and a few more eBay purchases later, I got the razor to start passing HHT so I've started using it. Been at it about a week. I don't have any of the other accoutrements like brushes and soaps and oils and whatever. Figured I would run out my crappy foam supply first. I have tons of sharpening stuff. A mixture of Shapton Pro/Glass and Naniwa Super Stones from 500-12k. Some Jnats, Cnats, lots of paddle strops, hanging strops, several honing compounds, etc. I did buy two little coticule/BBW (I think that's what they are). And they actually, when rubbed together have produced the best shave for me. The Shapton Pro 12k is sharper, but less comfortable. And my Jnats are more knife oriented. Between shavings I've been doing a couple laps on pasted linen (CBN) and then a couple on bare leather. The edge is getting sharper and cleaner day by day. I think I might start skipping the linen soon. Anyway, I know you guys like pics. So here's the razor I honed and my pair of coticules. If you have any info that you can share to help me ID the rocks/confirm they are coticule/bbws that would be greatly appreciated. There are no filters in the pics. I tried to get lighting that showed the true colors as best I could. Also, I just read about cell-rot this morning. Is that something I should be concerned with with this razor? I've already grown quite fond of it.

Thanks


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Wet in direct sunlight
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[stringer bean]

Sorry for the double post.

 

[L.A. Jones]

You are off to a great start.

 

[Namkcakram]

La grise and la nouvelle were known for producing very forgiving edges and having that rippled wood grain surface appearance like the top stone.

Overall though, appearance alone might narrow a Coticule down to being from a few different veins but I really don’t think there’s a solid taxonomy.

The smaller more consistently colored one... who knows. One of my best is a little 125 x 30mm one like that but worn down to 2-3mm of Coticule left.

 

[Christian1212]

very nice looking stones you got there

 

[stringer bean]

You are off to a great start.

Thanks

La grise and la nouvelle were known for producing very forgiving edges and having that rippled wood grain surface appearance like the top stone.

Overall though, appearance alone might narrow a Coticule down to being from a few different veins but I really don’t think there’s a solid taxonomy.

The smaller more consistently colored one... who knows. One of my best is a little 125 x 30mm one like that but worn down to 2-3mm of Coticule left.

But they definitely are coticules of some sort right? The larger one was labeled such but the small one was a gamble. Estate picker on eBay who didn't know what it was, crummy pictures and very dirty. I cleaned it up and lapped most of the stains out. I use it for a tomo nagura for the larger one.

very nice looking stones you got there

Thank you

 

[MO1]

Would like to see your jnats aswell!

 

[stringer bean]

Would like to see your jnats aswell!

Ok. I don't have many, but I'll be happy to share. I bought my first synthetic stone in 2005 but I just started collecting naturals in the past year or two.
I'll start with the two prettiest.
Aizu. This is a nice size bench stone. Probably close to 2000 grit. Has a lot of mostly harmless holes all through it. Some of them are full of sand you gotta dig out every once in awhile. Great stone for any kind of knives. The holes and sand would suck for razors.



Okudo Suita
I bought this to use for razors. However one of those two lines is pretty toxic and annoyingly harsh and metallic. I prefer the coticules anyway. I am going to keep it though, at least for the time being, for knives. It's extremely fine but raises swarf quickly and puts a screaming finishing edge polish on kitchen knives. And they glide right over the metallic line.



And here's a group shot of the rest.




Top row. L to R
Chinese Finisher. I like this stone. It will last a billion years. It's slow and steady but if you're patient you'll get there. I bought it for razors but actually use it mostly for deburring stages of knife sharpening.
On the right is that suita.

Bottom Row
Left most is of unknown provenance. France, Belgium, Germany maybe? It is hard. Medium coarse. Say 800-1000 grit on synthetic scale. Recent acquisition. I'm going to test it as a step in my natural razor progression. Probably this stone to set the bevel. Then BBW then coticule. The other razor I did all the bevel setting and honing on synthetics and then just experimented with different finishes. I've got two more razors coming and at least one I want to hone on all naturals.

Next over is a synthetic red aoto. Just got it in the mail. Mixture of 2-4k grit. Haven't even used it yet. Muddy soft stone for polishing knives.

Next is a Hideriyama. Muddy soft stone for polishing knives. Leaves a pretty nice knife edge but too soft for razors.

And the last is the aizu again.

 

[Namkcakram]

I’d say just off the pictures I’m as sure the small is a Coticule as I am that the large is a coti.

If you haven’t finished on just water yet you should try finishing on both individually under running water and see what differences there are between them. Many Coticules will give you an edge well past keen enough to comfortably shave, but it might take different processes to get there and the edges might feel a bit different.

 

[stringer bean]

I’d say just off the pictures I’m as sure the small is a Coticule as I am that the large is a coti.

If you haven’t finished on just water yet you should try finishing on both individually under running water and see what differences there are between them. Many Coticules will give you an edge well past keen enough to comfortably shave, but it might take different processes to get there and the edges might feel a bit different.

I'm glad they are both (probably) coticules. It sucks to purchase something like that over the internet and find out later it's not what you had hoped it was. My best coticule home so far I finished on straight water, but not running water, I'll have to try that. Anyway, when I tried shaving straight off of the hone, I found the edge to be slightly grabbier than I could get off of the Shapton Pro 12k or the Suita. However, after stropping each and testing it, the coticule edge feels the smoothest on my neck.

 

[MO1]

Interesting, I can sometimes feel some spots on my suita, but lapping it to a more refined and smooth surface seems to take care of those kind of spots really well.
I recently actually prefer to finish on my suita because of its speed and it gives a very clean finish, buttery smooth keen edges.
Edit: no stone are the same ofcourse, but maybe worth a try to lap it to a more refined surface?

 

[stringer bean]

Interesting, I can sometimes feel some spots on my suita, but lapping it to a more refined and smooth surface seems to take care of those kind of spots really well.
I recently actually prefer to finish on my suita because of its speed and it gives a very clean finish, buttery smooth keen edges.
Edit: no stone are the same ofcourse, but maybe worth a try to lap it to a more refined surface?

I like the finish of the Suita. It's very comparable to the coticules in a way. I'm going to try and find another. My main issue with the one I have is the metallic line. It's hard to avoid. I tried digging it out. I made it usable for knife stuff but I can still feel it catching on the razor.

 

[Joshua223]

Welcome to the forum. What type of chef are you?

Yep, those look like coticules on BBW.

I wouldn't worry about cell rot. If you keep the blade clean/dry and you start seeing rust pop up anyway, then you need to keep an eye on it. Brightly colored and translucent celluloid scales are more prone to rotting than the plain black and beige ones. Store the razor in a ventilated place, out of the sunlight, where it won't get too hot.

 

[Namkcakram]

I'm glad they are both (probably) coticules. It sucks to purchase something like that over the internet and find out later it's not what you had hoped it was. My best coticule home so far I finished on straight water, but not running water, I'll have to try that. Anyway, when I tried shaving straight off of the hone, I found the edge to be slightly grabbier than I could get off of the Shapton Pro 12k or the Suita. However, after stropping each and testing it, the coticule edge feels the smoothest on my neck.

That seems to be near the pinnacle for what most Coticules can do is an edge that almost feels like a dull butter knife on your face, but wipes the hairs away especially WTG.

Shaving with a straight is a full-package deal too, where every portion of the honing and shave either works together or clashes in some way. You might’ve struck gold on your first few attempts where you happened to get a shoulderless full hollow razor that has the right dimensions and steel properties where a Coticule edge is just divine, and the next blade you pick up might be the opposite and you’ll prefer a top synthetic edge on that one.

For me I’ve found I prefer mid width ~6/8 blades, hollow ground, and very narrow included bevel angles very similar to what you have there. I’ve found for my beard and face those blades usually shave best with a really maxed out Coticule edge, or an Arkansas finished edge. I’ll hone on about anything you can think of, but a JNAT edge on one of those very fine hollows basically makes a scalpel and that’s not my preference. There are plenty of others out there who prefer a big fat near wedge with a JNAT lightsaber level edge on, it’s just a question of what your face wants and you won’t really know until you feel it. This is why the experienced guys won’t really say any edge is the best, they’ll try to describe their impressions or what they like/dislike.

If you’re already shaving well off a Coticule and it makes it through your beard without issues, I’d say go find a Full hollow from NY at auction for cheap and go to town with some honing experimentation. My favorite is a 13/16 Kinfolks, but there are a lot of good brands from that Little valley, NY forge. Genco is probably the most common ~$20 auction razor, and I’ve yet to find one that doesn’t hone up perfectly and easily. That way you can preserve your first razor (it’ll always be a favorite) and experiment by honing a Genco to death. They shave great too, you won’t get a better shave than NY hollows can give until you’re at 10x the price range. Yours might be a slight step up from a NY hollow with that shoulderless grind and old Sheffield steel.

 

[Namkcakram]

I meant stabilizerless, not shoulderless. I’d recommend a shoulderless for variety though

 

[stringer bean]

Interesting, I can sometimes feel some spots on my suita, but lapping it to a more refined and smooth surface seems to take care of those kind of spots really well.
I recently actually prefer to finish on my suita because of its speed and it gives a very clean finish, buttery smooth keen edges.
Edit: no stone are the same ofcourse, but maybe worth a try to lap it to a more refined surface?

I have a couple of times. But this particular line goes all the way through the stone. When I lap it, it helps. But I will probably just buy a different one for razors. I like it for knives.

Welcome to the forum. What type of chef are you?

Currently I'm the banquet chef for a large hotel. I've been cooking professionally for fifteen years. Restaurants, hotels, private clubs, catering.

Namkcacram - thanks for the advice. I'm definitely going to buy some more razors to play with. I'll add Kinsfolk and Genco to my eBay searches.

 

[musicman980]

A clean linen strop goes a long way with a coticule edge. Have you tried using some dish soap on the coticule to finish? I do that and it gives it a little extra umph.

 

[stringer bean]

A clean linen strop goes a long way with a coticule edge. Have you tried using some dish soap on the coticule to finish? I do that and it gives it a little extra umph.

I did running water the other day. I will try some dish soap too. I went a little crazy on eBay. There are quite a few test razors coming my way.

 

[Namkcakram]

Yeah I find usually running water works better, but it varies by stone and half mine are Les lat hybrids which are sort of their own thing. The big thing is you really can’t overhone on Coticules so as long as you keep your technique solid while you’re experimenting your edge won’t go backwards.

 

[Seveneighth]

That seems to be near the pinnacle for what most Coticules can do is an edge that almost feels like a dull butter knife on your face, but wipes the hairs away especially WTG.

Shaving with a straight is a full-package deal too, where every portion of the honing and shave either works together or clashes in some way. You might’ve struck gold on your first few attempts where you happened to get a shoulderless full hollow razor that has the right dimensions and steel properties where a Coticule edge is just divine, and the next blade you pick up might be the opposite and you’ll prefer a top synthetic edge on that one.

For me I’ve found I prefer mid width ~6/8 blades, hollow ground, and very narrow included bevel angles very similar to what you have there. I’ve found for my beard and face those blades usually shave best with a really maxed out Coticule edge, or an Arkansas finished edge. I’ll hone on about anything you can think of, but a JNAT edge on one of those very fine hollows basically makes a scalpel and that’s not my preference. There are plenty of others out there who prefer a big fat near wedge with a JNAT lightsaber level edge on, it’s just a question of what your face wants and you won’t really know until you feel it. This is why the experienced guys won’t really say any edge is the best, they’ll try to describe their impressions or what they like/dislike.

If you’re already shaving well off a Coticule and it makes it through your beard without issues, I’d say go find a Full hollow from NY at auction for cheap and go to town with some honing experimentation. My favorite is a 13/16 Kinfolks, but there are a lot of good brands from that Little valley, NY forge. Genco is probably the most common ~$20 auction razor, and I’ve yet to find one that doesn’t hone up perfectly and easily. That way you can preserve your first razor (it’ll always be a favorite) and experiment by honing a Genco to death. They shave great too, you won’t get a better shave than NY hollows can give until you’re at 10x the price range. Yours might be a slight step up from a NY hollow with that shoulderless grind and old Sheffield steel.

Agree with this - it's a nice description.

Different steels and grinds work better with different stones. That is part of the joy of maintaining your own edges:- you can tune your razors to get a really unique shaving experience from each.