Hard black / Translucent Arkansas slurry stones?

[croyleje]

Hi Everyone, I was looking around at new natural whetstones and came across slurry / nagura stones for both hard black and translucent Arkansas stones. Are people actually using slurry on Arkansas finishers? Has anyone ever heard of this? My interest on these stones is more about maintaining surface finish on my hard black stones. I prefer a 600 grit sic finish on my finisher and have found that after a few razors the stones start to burnish out and require considerably more laps and was thinking that maybe rubbing them down with a slurry stone may prevent the burnishing from accruing. But when I found these stones it brought up the questions about are people actually using Arkansas stones with slurry? And if so has anyone had any success doing this and what are your thoughts about doing this? Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated.
Thank you,
Jason

 

[Chandu]

Hi Everyone, I was looking around at new natural whetstones and came across slurry / nagura stones for both hard black and translucent Arkansas stones. Are people actually using slurry on Arkansas finishers? Has anyone ever heard of this? My interest on these stones is more about maintaining surface finish on my hard black stones. I prefer a 600 grit sic finish on my finisher and have found that after a few razors the stones start to burnish out and require considerably more laps and was thinking that maybe rubbing them down with a slurry stone may prevent the burnishing from accruing. But when I found these stones it brought up the questions about are people actually using Arkansas stones with slurry? And if so has anyone had any success doing this and what are your thoughts about doing this? Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated.
Thank you,
Jason

Unless the slurry stone is actually grinding some off the novaculite, you aren't using any slurry from the black ark you'd be using whatever grit is in the slurry stone.

If you wanted to use Ark slurry buy a small ark and rub a diamond stone on that and then transfer the ark dust to your ark stone you sharpen on.

IMO, don't waste your time. Arks aren't meant for slurry.

 

[Chandu]

Actually, reading your post a bit closer to get rid of the burnishing on your Ark and I think what I'm about to mention would be tantamount to sacrilege to some/most razor honers using a hard black ark. Larry Williams, the wood working plane builder and plane iron maker used India and a Translucent Ark to sharpen the plane blades he made. His "deal" was lapping his stones before every sharpening session and just leaving the slurry raised by the diamond plate he used to lap on the stones.

I say this might be sacrilege because usually folks sharpening a straight on a hard black are using it as a final, final final finisher and have a very refined blade before they ever go to that stone.

I only sharpen wood carving tools and do that to a mirror polished edge because carving is a push cut and smoother edges are better edges. I wouldn't know if the method I mention would be viable for razors or not. I have a feeling some would find it made their stone to "wild" for awhile.

I have also read of people using diamond paste on Arks which to me, defeats the entire purpose of using an ark in the first place. If you do that you might as well use the diamond paste on cast iron.

Have a good night, hopefully something in this post jumps out to someone as a good/horrible/crazy idea and stimulates some productive conversation.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

You could use slurry, from another stone or even slurry an ark with another ark, there are no rules.

But why? When I finish on an Ark, it is to get an Ark edge. I have my Arks finished to 600 grit on one side and burnished on the other and go to an Ark from a near mirror bevel.

If you finish on slurry, especially Ark slurry you will get edge impact on the edge and if you start from a mirror finished bevel you may be going backwards on edge finish.

I suspect that slurry makers for Arks are for tool or knife honers as they will benefit from a toothier edge.

I have tried different slurries on Ark’s years ago with mixed results, none of which improved a plain water and Smith’s edge, for me.

Try it and see, worst that could happen, you will need to refinish your Ark on 600 or burnish, not the end of the world.

 

[cotedupy]

You can slurry a hard ark yep. It makes them incredibly fast and aggressive at quite a fine level. You want something where the abrasive at least is harder - rubbing two translucents together is going to the square root of f all. Diamond, vitrified SiC or AlOx all work well.

To refresh the surface in the way that you want I'd probably use a fine or extra fine India.

 

[croyleje]

Thanks for all the information I guess I’ll order one of these small slurry stones and give it a go. What really surprises me if just how fast the 600Sic finish burnishes out seems to only take a couple razors to start glassing up. If I can run it down with a nagura every time and prevent having to pull out my plate glass and sic powder that would be nice, it’s not hard but it is a pain in the ***.

As for the cotedupy comments it would be nice to be able to speed up a fine ark to hone the razor then wash off the slurry and refine the edge as usual.

Also considering lapping one of my arks on one of those concave lapping plates to see how that works but that is for a different day.

Again thanks everyone.
Jason

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Can't you just hit it with 600 w/d to refresh it?

 

[Bowmaker]

Rubbing two hards together works pretty well for a while. They seem to come to a point where they are polishing each other and will stick pretty hard. I still needed to refresh on occasion with somthing coarser.

 

[Gamma]

Slurry made from hard or super hard Arks will degrade a delicate finished or near finished edge on a straight razor. Well, it will damage one of my edges, been there, done that. Several times, always the same. Novaculite 'slurry' doesn't break down, it just tumbles and beats up the edge's apex. Only thing worse was putting diamond slurry on a Trans Ark.
If I was using a softer type of 'hard ark' I 'might' (prob would not though) consider making slurry to speed up sharpening tools or something. But, that's a stretch.
Maybe to clear some swarf off the top.. maybe, but prob not.
For testing stones, sure - done that. Esp with Washita, there are several 'types' and identifying them can be difficult. Rubbing one with known other can create some useful data points.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I would just put a few drops of high-quality mineral oil and the stone and go.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

If you like a 600-grit finish on your Ark, spray glue a piece of 600 wet and dry on a flattened $4, 3X12 glass tile. Lap your Ark as needed without the risk of trashing a diamond plate. Arks will eat diamond plates pretty quickly.

You can easily flatten a glass tile in a few minutes with a sheet of 220 and a flat surface.

 

[Jayber Crow]

A lot of people like a dressed surface with 600 w/d abrasive sheets; I like to leave my surface burnished.
When using a Natural Whetstone's trans black or old Norton trans hard as a finisher my progression is 8k > Thuringian > Ark; after a few minutes on the Ark there is a good amount of swarf so the burnished surface still "cuts" pretty well. So, I don't think it's necessary to or beneficial to use a slurry on a hard Ark.
I used to dress a soft Ark with a diamond plate for bevel setting it worked pretty well, but I wore out my diamond plate pretty quick. There's better options for bevel setting given the price of diamond plates.

 

[Alum of Potash]

A lot of people like a dressed surface with 600 w/d abrasive sheets; I like to leave my surface burnished.
When using a Natural Whetstone's trans black or old Norton trans hard as a finisher my progression is 8k > Thuringian > Ark; after a few minutes on the Ark there is a good amount of swarf so the burnished surface still "cuts" pretty well. So, I don't think it's necessary to or beneficial to use a slurry on a hard Ark.
I used to dress a soft Ark with a diamond plate for bevel setting it worked pretty well, but I wore out my diamond plate pretty quick. There's better options for bevel setting given the price of diamond plates.

Interesting that you have renounced dressing the softer Arks with diamond plates. I remember this as a recommendation, but I could never bring myself to do so, knowing from experience that it would quickly trash my diamond plate. On a couple of occasions, I have watched a friend using low-grit garnet sandpaper used dry, and applied by hand, to quickly dress the surface of his translucent Ark prior to honing a knife to a finish. Never tried it, but it might work to dress the softer Arks and Indias. Otherwise, I've sort followed the same path in using synths rather than oil-stones at the early stages, as the latter tend to glaze over and smooth, and I've not really found an effective way to restore their former fighting strength.

But, yeah, to the start of this thread, no novaculite slurries with the Arks.

 

[Chandu]

but I could never bring myself to do so, knowing from experience that it would quickly trash my diamond plate

I have a diamond plate that I use to lap Arkansas and Spyderco ceramics. Arks are nothing to a diamond plate, but ceramics, you need to exercise caution and not let the ceramic slurry build up. What I do is lap them with water gently washing away the slurry.

I don't do this daily, but several times a year with no issue so far. I have a Trend diamond plate, but Eze-Lap, DMT, and Atoma are all good.

Sidenote: I had been looking for a 1000-1200 grit diamond plate long ago that I could go right to the stop from wood carving tools. (That diamond plate really doesn't exist - it's a unicorn, I know all about the DMT mef and eef) It can be done, but you best have as stropping compound that starts big and fractures as you strop if you want to get from hither to yon with a single strop. The best I've found is the green stuff that the Russians call "Pasta Goy". Beware every dude that can mix wax/carrier some alox and chromium ox in the former soviet states can and is on ebay selling it. Not all is equal. I have some very old stuff that I believe was the original produced by the original producers back in the day. I got it from a Russian wood carver.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Arks are nothing to a diamond plate

I don't do this daily, but several times a year with no issue so far. I have a Trend diamond plate, but Eze-Lap, DMT, and Atoma are all good.

When Sharpening Supplies started selling DMT's new line of dedicated lapping plates a several years ago, I purchased one as it was advertised for use in lapping Arkansas stones. First stone I tried to lap was a black hard Arkansas. After around forty-five minutes, I noticed that the lapping plate did not have the same strength as before. Thirty minutes later, it didn't seem to be removing anything. Fifteen minutes later and it had given up the ghost. So I sent it back to Sharpening Supplies explaining what had happened for a refund. A few months later, I noticed that Arkansas stones were no longer listed in the advertising of these plates. Loose silicon carbide works better IMO as it can be replaced as it breaks down.

 

[Chandu]

When Sharpening Supplies started selling DMT's new line of dedicated lapping plates a several years ago, I purchased one as it was advertised for use in lapping Arkansas stones. First stone I tried to lap was a black hard Arkansas. After around forty-five minutes, I noticed that the lapping plate did not have the same strength as before. Thirty minutes later, it didn't seem to be removing anything. Fifteen minutes later and it had given up the ghost. So I sent it back to Sharpening Supplies explaining what had happened for a refund. A few months later, I noticed that Arkansas stones were no longer listed in the advertising of these plates. Loose silicon carbide works better IMO as it can be replaced as it breaks down.

Wow. I've had no problem. In fact Larry Williams that I mentioned earlier used DMT - the dimpled ones on his Ark and India. I do agree the SiC is faster and cheaper, if a lot messier. Depending on how often you do it and how much needs to be removed that certainly could be the method of choice.

Still interesting on the DMT, aren't their lapping plates supposed to have what they market as Hard Coat. They market a diamond stone with that that is suitible for extensive used sharpening ceramic knives.

Honestly I've not been nice to that Trend stone. I wanted it to shed some diamonds. I've sat for hours (not at one time, but cumulative) lapping the flat end of a hardened steel bolt wanting it to break in more and become finer.

From what I have read the Eze-lap used to be a mix of poly and mono diamond and they broke in superbly and then DMT's marketing dept won the war and everyone moved to mono which depending on what you want is or is not the best.

If I wear the Trend out, I'm going to replace it with CBN just for kicks. I always intend to have a diamond or similar stone on hand just because I want something that stays flat and will abrade anything.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Wow. I've had no problem. In fact Larry Williams that I mentioned earlier used DMT - the dimpled ones on his Ark and India. I do agree the SiC is faster and cheaper, if a lot messier. Depending on how often you do it and how much needs to be removed that certainly could be the method of choice.

Still interesting on the DMT, aren't their lapping plates supposed to have what they market as Hard Coat. They market a diamond stone with that that is suitible for extensive used sharpening ceramic knives.

Honestly I've not been nice to that Trend stone. I wanted it to shed some diamonds. I've sat for hours (not at one time, but cumulative) lapping the flat end of a hardened steel bolt wanting it to break in more and become finer.

From what I have read the Eze-lap used to be a mix of poly and mono diamond and they broke in superbly and then DMT's marketing dept won the war and everyone moved to mono which depending on what you want is or is not the best.

If I wear the Trend out, I'm going to replace it with CBN just for kicks. I always intend to have a diamond or similar stone on hand just because I want something that stays flat and will abrade anything.

In my case it was a lapping from the get-go. I can understand that a lighter, dimpled DMT might hold up longer if one is only dressing or up-keeping the stone from time to time. But I was responding to Jayber Crow's comments above, in noting that he had moved to synths as the upkeep on the Arks and Indias was too much for both him and his diamond plate in the end and long after having exchanged messages with him on the subject back when he took it up a few years ago. Believe me, I'd love to have a DMT or other diamond plate that could bring my glazed Indias and soft Arks back to life in a snap like the synths. The true hard Arks are not so much an issue once they've been smoothed/polished as they don't clog up at that stage.

Following the example of a friend in France who has shown me his honing techniques on several occasions, and after my earlier post, I ran some 80x garnet sandpaper across the surface of a soft Arkansas that has been giving me some problems as it had smoothed over. Judged by feel in comparison with the sides, which have remained in the original state, the surface seems to be coming back. This was done by hand, rather than placed on a thick glass plate for flatness, emphasizing the edges leading to the middle, to tend more towards a more convex form than concave. Afterwards, the stone was rinsed to remove any standing debris.

Routine soaks in Simple Green might also help to remove clogged swarf and maintain things. I've noticed that it tends to raise the grain as a result.

 

[Chandu]

The true hard Arks are not so much an issue once they've been smoothed/polished as they don't clog up at that stage.

Very true. You can very easily go from used with oil to water and back again. It's a lot harder to do on a soft ark. I have done it with a combination of soaking in a degreaser and bit of material removal.

For keeping a soft ark as unclogged as possible, I tend to use quite a bit of oil and then when done, wipe off and put on some clean oil, work that around with my finger which brings more swarf out of the stone and wipe it off. I think true hards can be used with water or oil, but softs I think it's foolish to use water untless you plan to scour them with some abrasive on a regular basis.

Garnet is a nice abrasive. Not crazy haphazzard shapes. A lot of uniformity to it.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I've seen guys use fine stone slurry on an ark with mixed success (basically use it like a glass hone). Actually Hard ark slurry, I'd agree with Gamma. You're just gonna mangle your edge. Guys love slurrying everything it seems. 95% of the time in my experience it's a wash or a bad thing.

 

[Chandu]

Guys love slurrying everything it seems. 95% of the time in my experience it's a wash or a bad thing.

I would agree. People hope to hit on the magic formula. Thinking of taking my diamond hone and getting a good slurry on the CBN hone and then.... LOL