Interesting that the only stones rated “Excellent” for razors are 3K, 10K, and 30K. I assume that’s meant to be taken as their recommended progression. Fits with the 3x jumps, and I really wonder if that’s all there is to it, rather than some actual difference in the stones, like particle distribution as mentioned previously. Something only company insiders could accurately answer I imagine.
Thinking of Shaptons lately...
- Thread starter Rusty Blade
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Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Apparently not. The stones seemingly do not have the same grit distributioon, for example the 16k actually has some grit in it coarser than the 10k. The recommended razor stones are supposedly the ones with a narrow grit distribution.
This is not limited to the Glass Stone line. The ‘obi’, or belt on the Shapton Pros list the recommended uses for that line. Below is a chart posted by Oz Parker that is supposedly a compilation of the Shapton Pro obi descriptions.
Additionally different manufacturers may call a stone of the same grit distribution as different grit, depending on the grit standard they use and whether they’re using a 40%, 50%, 66%, or some other point on the grit distribution curve. All these issues have been repored and discussed on various forums and in technical documents from manufacturers. Understanding how different manufacturers and different stones compare is confusing, complicated, and not particularly worth it.
However, following the manufacturer’s recommendations will rarely lead to a poor result. Not following the manufacturer’s recommendations occasionally leads to a poor result. Why would you use a stone on a razor that the manufacturer says that the stone is not suited for?
So this chart kind of flies in the face of the more or less incremental way that most of us use synthetic stones. Most of us are more accustomed to making smaller jumps between stones. I find their recommendations extremely interesting and something I would like to pursue but I don’t own the Glass stone series. I wonder if this holds true with other brands like Naniwa?
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
The 3x and 4x steps are very possible with the Shapton Glass because of their speed, especially the HR series. 2k HR -> 6k HC is my normal pre-JNat sequence. If the bevels don’t need much, either the 3k HR or the 4k HR then 8k HC works well. The 3k HR -> 8k HC works as a notmal progression too it’s just slower and 6k works fine if you’re jumping to a JNat or coti. I have gone 500 HR -> 2k HR with no problems at all. Larger steps are also enhanced by a narrower grit distribution, which many of the glas stones have (but apparently not the 16k), so there aren’t as many coarser scratches to remove.
Shapton’s scheme does seem odd - I think they made a sequence for western tools, scissors, western knives etc, and a set for razors. Some stones are ‘interusable’ while others are not recommended for some uses. They’re just all together in the product line. I note that they really don’t recommend Glass Stones below 2k grit for razors, but I use the 500 and 1k all the time for nicks and geometry issues with no problems - you have to use coarser stones in these cases. Their recommendations are a bit of a mess until you get used to them.
You can use larger steps with other stones but it may take a bit longer. I’ve never had any problems with a 2x step with any brand of stone.
I’ve been playing around with my 3000/8000 combination stone. It’s made by Naniwa. I did have to spend a bit more time at 8000 than usual but gauging whether or not I was past the 3000 grit scratches did seem to be a little bit easier.
To me it’s almost like a throwback to a course/fine concept. That’s what the 3000/10,000 sequence that you had mentioned earlier reminded me of. I have found it a little challenging in terms of determining whether or not the scratches (created at whatever grit) are actually gone or not as I continue through the process when I use a full range of stones.
Because of PSD spread there’s the opportunity for a lot of overlap when using close grits I suspect.
To me it’s almost like a throwback to a course/fine concept. That’s what the 3000/10,000 sequence that you had mentioned earlier reminded me of. I have found it a little challenging in terms of determining whether or not the scratches (created at whatever grit) are actually gone or not as I continue through the process when I use a full range of stones.
Because of PSD spread there’s the opportunity for a lot of overlap when using close grits I suspect.
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It is in the mail, so hopefully it is better than the regular 16k. Just have to test it. I thought i got the 10k, but on closer inspection of the order it is the 0.85 micron stone, in addition to the 3k and 6 k hr.
Maybe the particle in the .85 distribution is better than the regular 16k. Time will show
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
It is in the mail, so hopefully it is better than the regular 16k. Just have to test it. I thought i got the 10k, but on closer inspection of the order it is the 0.85 micron stone, in addition to the 3k and 6 k hr.
Maybe the particle in the .85 distribution is better than the regular 16k. Time will show
The first 0.44u I had was defective and confirmed so by Shapton. When Mark at CKTG spoke with them, they said that I didn’t need the 0.44u for razors since I had the 0.85u. FYI.
I have the 1k HR, 3k HR and 8k HC. The speed of the 1k HR is terrifying. A nice tool to have up your sleeve when you need it but man is it fast. The bite really drops off once you get to the 8k HC.
The 1K HR doesn't seem so fast when you're reshaping the bevel on a Japanese razor. Faster than other stuff, yes, but still.
I got the HC stones recently and I really like what they do on (carbon steel) razors. Great feel to sharpen on, too, really creamy.
I contacted Shapton directly (through their website) before purchasing the G7 stones to ask what they recommend for straight razors. This was their response:
Thank you for your inquiry.
If you use G7(GlassStone Seven) series for sharpening straight razors, The combination below is recommended.
70302/G7 6.7micron
70103/G7 3.0micron
70503/G7 2.0micron
70903/G7 0.85micron
Hope this will help you well.
Best regards,
SHAPTON Co., Ltd.”
To clarify my question to them, this was my contact form info:
Inquiry detail: I am thinking about purchasing the glass seven stones for sharpening of western straight razors.
Are there any specific grit stones in this series that should not be used on razors? Likewise, are there some recommended grits which are very good for razors?
Do you have grit distribution graphs for the stones?
I am thinking of getting the 3, 1.2 & 0.44 um stones. Maybe the 0.85.
Any help / recommendations are greatly appreciated.
Best regards
Thank you for your inquiry.
If you use G7(GlassStone Seven) series for sharpening straight razors, The combination below is recommended.
70302/G7 6.7micron
70103/G7 3.0micron
70503/G7 2.0micron
70903/G7 0.85micron
Hope this will help you well.
Best regards,
SHAPTON Co., Ltd.”
To clarify my question to them, this was my contact form info:
Inquiry detail: I am thinking about purchasing the glass seven stones for sharpening of western straight razors.
Are there any specific grit stones in this series that should not be used on razors? Likewise, are there some recommended grits which are very good for razors?
Do you have grit distribution graphs for the stones?
I am thinking of getting the 3, 1.2 & 0.44 um stones. Maybe the 0.85.
Any help / recommendations are greatly appreciated.
Best regards
Thanks for sharing that, @towliff.
Just a little update. I have now tried the new Shapton glass stones. I used a 3k hr, then an 6k hr following with the 0.85 gs seven and the 0.44.
This is not a review, or how to hone. The final edge is not shave tested. There are some issues with the edge, but that might not be because of the stones, or the razor (hart steel 7/8)
To me the 0.85 felt better/smoother to hone on. Maybe it is because it is new. I had the 0.44 before, and i newer enjoyed using it because of how it felt. It is really fast for it's rated grit.
I only did maybe 5-6 passes on the 0.44 gs seven and the edge started to chip out. I felt and saw a small fragment come off the edge. To me it seems like the edge coming off the 0.85 seems more uniform then the 0.44. This might just have been a defect that was caused by previous work, or the steel not being able to handle this refinement.
The razor was then taken to a jnat with tomo slurry to see if the small chip came out.
Maybe CKTG is right, you really do not need the 0.44
This does not prove anything, but if anyone have any input on the subject matter i would like some feedback.
I really liked the 0.85 gs seven, and it seems to give good results. It looks like some of the deeper striations from the 6k is still there. More time spent on the 6k or even putting in a 8k would help.
0.85 micron gs seven
0.44 mic edge
Final edge from Jnat
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Maybe you have a bad one too, can you feel grit in the swarf with your finger? I could in the first one, the second is fine.
I need tro try that. It just feel a little less refined. It seems faster than the 0.85. There might be someting wrong with mine to. It also loads up more.
I realize this thread is almost 2 years old but I watched a video that Jende did using the Shapton glass stones. He used every stone that the doesn’t recommend for razors. If you look up Jende videos using Shapton glass stones you will find it easy. I’m confused to say the least. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. They contradict their own chart. I use Shapton and Naniwa and it seems that you can’t get good information from either of them.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
My comments are for the Shapton Glass HR series unless otherwise specified.
First of all Jende is not Shapton. I assume that the chart is from Shapton and distributed by Jende.
My advice is don’t obsess about it, in many of the cases, we’re discussing a solution in search of a problem.
Shapton uses a different philosophy than other manufacturers. While a Naniwa or King might use the same distribution of grit and the same binder for all their stones, IOW all the stones are the same except for the grit, Shapton is not like that. They make a line of stones for tools, knives, and razors all within the same Glass Stone HR series. The differences are subtle but there. Does it make a difference? Maybe maybe not. If you’re good at honing, it might not make a difference, and if you’re not good at honing, it probably won’t make a difference. This philosophy is not new for Shapton, they do the same thing in the Pro series, what the stones are recommended for is printed on the obi, or belt around the box.
Shapton recommends the 3k, 10k, and 30k HR for razors. I have the 3k and the 10k, and wouldn’t pay up for the 30k, lol. What seems different about the 3k and 10k is that they’re noticeably harder than their neighbors on the grit scale. Shapton also says that the grit in the razor stones has a narrower distribution than the knife/tool hones. The classic discussion is about whether the 16k has a wider grit distribution than the other stones. It does according to Shapton, and for razors they recommend either the 10k HR or the 8k HC over the 16k. I have an email for Shapton that confirms the last sentence. Graphically here’s what we’re talking about.
So the 16k HR has coarser grit in it than the 10k HR. Does this make a difference? Again, maybe, maybe not. If you can’t feel it, then the answer is no. But this is why that they don’t recommend the 16k HR for razors.
You also need to cut them some slack about their recommendations. If someone came to you and asked what’s the best razor sequence, you might have a different answer depending on what they want to do. Shapton does not know if you’re doing geometry correction or chip removal, in which case the 3k HR is too fine and slow - you need the 500 HR or maybe the 1k. But for general purpose razor maintenance their recommendations work very well.
It’s also important to remember when honing razors, that if your progression has left no striae on the bevel except for the final finisher, it does not matter what came before as far as the finished edge goes.
Hope this helps.
First of all Jende is not Shapton. I assume that the chart is from Shapton and distributed by Jende.
My advice is don’t obsess about it, in many of the cases, we’re discussing a solution in search of a problem.
Shapton uses a different philosophy than other manufacturers. While a Naniwa or King might use the same distribution of grit and the same binder for all their stones, IOW all the stones are the same except for the grit, Shapton is not like that. They make a line of stones for tools, knives, and razors all within the same Glass Stone HR series. The differences are subtle but there. Does it make a difference? Maybe maybe not. If you’re good at honing, it might not make a difference, and if you’re not good at honing, it probably won’t make a difference. This philosophy is not new for Shapton, they do the same thing in the Pro series, what the stones are recommended for is printed on the obi, or belt around the box.
Shapton recommends the 3k, 10k, and 30k HR for razors. I have the 3k and the 10k, and wouldn’t pay up for the 30k, lol. What seems different about the 3k and 10k is that they’re noticeably harder than their neighbors on the grit scale. Shapton also says that the grit in the razor stones has a narrower distribution than the knife/tool hones. The classic discussion is about whether the 16k has a wider grit distribution than the other stones. It does according to Shapton, and for razors they recommend either the 10k HR or the 8k HC over the 16k. I have an email for Shapton that confirms the last sentence. Graphically here’s what we’re talking about.
So the 16k HR has coarser grit in it than the 10k HR. Does this make a difference? Again, maybe, maybe not. If you can’t feel it, then the answer is no. But this is why that they don’t recommend the 16k HR for razors.
You also need to cut them some slack about their recommendations. If someone came to you and asked what’s the best razor sequence, you might have a different answer depending on what they want to do. Shapton does not know if you’re doing geometry correction or chip removal, in which case the 3k HR is too fine and slow - you need the 500 HR or maybe the 1k. But for general purpose razor maintenance their recommendations work very well.
It’s also important to remember when honing razors, that if your progression has left no striae on the bevel except for the final finisher, it does not matter what came before as far as the finished edge goes.
Hope this helps.
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