What is impressive is the lack of irritation , never got such results even with much milder razors , especially on my neck.
Awesome! Congrats, and here's to many happy R41 shaves!
Gonna try the R41 2011 steep angle approach. Any helpful hints?
- Thread starter Codfish
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Awesome! Congrats, and here's to many happy R41 shaves!
Thanks to this thread I found a way to use proficiently my R41 (2013) , I had always used a shallow angle until two weeks ago but after reading this thread and another one I tried a steep shaving angle (with all the other important tips) and was able to get a magnificent shave . Since I was able to reply the result another four times I conclude this method works for me .
What is impressive is the lack of irritation , never got such results even with much milder razors , especially on my neck.
So far I used PermaSharp and Bolzano (old italian version) blades and they work both for me .
I encourage who has a R41 to give a serious try at this method and thank who made it public
That's fantastic!
Now you can start maximizing the duration of your BBS, by tuning your blade choice. For a normal BBS, but easier to have a smooth shave, go sharper. For cutting the beard hair deeper down, (but amazingly without in-growns), much longer lasting BBS, but more skill required for a very smooth shave, go less-sharp. Smooth is a mandatory. For example, Super Iridiums give me an easy smooth shave even with mediocre prep. Dorcos require better prep and more care to get a very smooth shave (very attainable though), but the BBSs lasts much much longer.
"For example, Super Iridiums give me an easy smooth shave even with mediocre prep. Dorcos require better prep and more care to get a very smooth shave (very attainable though), but the BBS lasts much much longer."
Are you saying Dorcos give a closer shave (BBS last much longer) than Polsilver SI's for this steep angle approach ?
Are you saying Dorcos give a closer shave (BBS last much longer) than Polsilver SI's for this steep angle approach ?
#6, could you please give us an idea of what specifically you mean by much longer lasting BBS? Like, how much longer in your experience?
I never thought about, but I had sort of already been gravitating towards this technique with the R41, but I wasn't quite aware of why one time my shave would be stellar, and the next time, only so-so. I used the 2011 R41 this morning, focusing on the steep angle and quick strokes, and it was very, very good. Also, probably a historically low amount of irritation, although I went 3 passes plus some touch-up. (But my beard is very abnormal, 2 passes just won't cut it.)
#6, it looks like you unintentionally just spilled out one more of your secrets! I just knew there is some Tao included, sharp and dull blade theory! We need some more explanations, or even more secrets!
Unfortunately, no one needs longer lasting BBS - we love shaving!
Unfortunately, no one needs longer lasting BBS - we love shaving!
Thanks you very much aimsport for all the tips you gave , the experimentation keeps on
If one really tune in this method with all its nuances I guess the R41 can became very difficult NOT to use even tough we all love variety......
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- #108
Gentlemen, I just wanted everyone to know we're doing this all wrong!
Although there are other more recent studies of shaving-related topics (e.g., brard hydration, value of different components in soaps & creams) the article I am quoting is considered the most complete and authoritative study of DE shaving ever published.
FACTORS INVOLVED IN SATISFACTORY SHAVING by Hollandar & Casselman appeared in The Journal of the American Medical Association in 1937. I'm sorry for the quality of the photocopy, but sharp-eyed readers will see that it says that minimum damage to the skin occurs at angles of 23 degrees or less. It further states that angles of 23-32 degrees are considered optimal for ease of shaving, minimal damage and increased comfort.
As odd as this may sound here in this thread, readers should recognize that most DE shavers throughout the 20th century learned this classic approach, and while taking more time to learn, became a matter of pride, and part of the mystique of The Art of Manliness. It worked for us very well.
I've been accused of being closed-minded concerning the steep angle approach. The truth of the matter was that I saw no reason to try. With over 1,000 successful shaves using the R41 (and it's variations) using the classic approach, I very rarely had problems, and most could be attributed to significant distractions and maybe a hangover or two.
Things change and new discoveries are found. It doesn't diminish the worth of the practices of previous generations. Some of us know times when straight razors, mug lather, leather strops and after shave "tonics" made shaving a rich and never-to-be-forgotten experience. Sometimes new is not necessarily better. Much-prized Gillette DE razors are testament to that.
Although there are other more recent studies of shaving-related topics (e.g., brard hydration, value of different components in soaps & creams) the article I am quoting is considered the most complete and authoritative study of DE shaving ever published.
FACTORS INVOLVED IN SATISFACTORY SHAVING by Hollandar & Casselman appeared in The Journal of the American Medical Association in 1937. I'm sorry for the quality of the photocopy, but sharp-eyed readers will see that it says that minimum damage to the skin occurs at angles of 23 degrees or less. It further states that angles of 23-32 degrees are considered optimal for ease of shaving, minimal damage and increased comfort.
As odd as this may sound here in this thread, readers should recognize that most DE shavers throughout the 20th century learned this classic approach, and while taking more time to learn, became a matter of pride, and part of the mystique of The Art of Manliness. It worked for us very well.
I've been accused of being closed-minded concerning the steep angle approach. The truth of the matter was that I saw no reason to try. With over 1,000 successful shaves using the R41 (and it's variations) using the classic approach, I very rarely had problems, and most could be attributed to significant distractions and maybe a hangover or two.
Things change and new discoveries are found. It doesn't diminish the worth of the practices of previous generations. Some of us know times when straight razors, mug lather, leather strops and after shave "tonics" made shaving a rich and never-to-be-forgotten experience. Sometimes new is not necessarily better. Much-prized Gillette DE razors are testament to that.
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VERY interesting Jim. Thanks for sharing this.
I believe the end effective angle is within the published on that article. We do get an equivalent shallow angle but with a stretched skin that makes it difficult for the skin to encroach into the gap. if you do this with a shallow angle and are not careful you are in for trouble.
I took this picture (without the blade) I did not exert any pressure, just the weight of the razor (I am using a heavy handle from the 9.99 utopia razor). This is the top part of my cheek (only place i could see what I was doing). The skin curves in the direction of the cap. In a shallow shave the skin is supported by the cap but with no support from the comb. I believe that the only razors that can support the steep angle have additional height and linear length to the comb, allowing for the skin stretch and setting up the proper angle of attack for the blade.
I took this picture (without the blade) I did not exert any pressure, just the weight of the razor (I am using a heavy handle from the 9.99 utopia razor). This is the top part of my cheek (only place i could see what I was doing). The skin curves in the direction of the cap. In a shallow shave the skin is supported by the cap but with no support from the comb. I believe that the only razors that can support the steep angle have additional height and linear length to the comb, allowing for the skin stretch and setting up the proper angle of attack for the blade.
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Well done! This ^^^ is what we've been saying all the time, for months.
Yes exactly. Fantastic picture and demo my friend! You've captured it perfectly!!!
Beautifully described and a great picture.
Agreed. But I am not arguing for one approach instead of another. This is not about "either/or" but "both/and". It's not either straight, classic, or steep angled. It's all three of them.
As much of a fan of the R41 I am, I have not stopped using and acquiring straights nor safety razors nor SE's, nor shavettes.
I love great smelling aftershaves, tonics, and balms. But I use them because I want to, not because I hope they treat some wear and tear on the skin. Stingless.
It's about your objective. For an unrushed luxurious shave that can be great if you've done your prep work, straights.
For an unrushed luxurious shave repeatably, without needing the stars to line up, then the traditional DE shallow angled shave.
For the longest lasting BBS, calmest skin, fastest shave, at the expense of some luxury (unless your prep and technique stars line up), the R41 steep angled.
Of all the types of shaving, the true cartridge killer is the steep angled R41. Multi-blades have speed, closeness, bloodless shaves and initially calm skin as their strong points. That's tough to beat.
Speed of shave: R41, yes, you can race across the face once you get this technique down. Two passes and done. One pass good enough for no-contact contexts like business meetings.
Closeness of shave: R41 (longer lasting BBS)
Calmness of skin: R41, especially in daily use where multiblade's effect on skin gets tiring to the point people stop looking forward to their shaves.
Stubble: R41. R41 stubble is easy to touch as it's more squared off, not sharpened and prickly like with a multiblade
No Ingrowns: R41, hands down, the R41 delivers closeness without waking the ingrown monster. Not so with multi-blades for many (and me, especially on the neck and under the jaw).
I believe steep angle R41 shaving is a skill worth learning, even if one uses it only when they need the longest lasting amazing BBS and calm skin immediately after the shave.
If you master the steep angled R41 shave, you can demonstrate to any doubters that you have surpassed a disposable multi-blade shave. There is no better shaving method than steep angled R41 to prepare for dancing cheek to cheek late into the night.
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- #116
I have never seen this expressed do clearly anywhere. You make a compelling point. I don't have any way to measure the angle, but it appears to be less than 45 degrees and possibly very close to the angle mentioned in the article, Note that the Hollandar & Casselman article indicates what is the best combination of closeness and comfort for "many men". The blade exposure and/or other aspects of the R41's geometry may also contribute to these qualities.
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The actual angle is somewhere between the pic above and the pic in Avincenty's February post: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/390786-R41-Again?p=5967374#post5967374
The reasons for this are:
1.the skin pincushions into the spaces between the comb rails, increasing the angle.
2. there is a small gap between the path of the comb rails and the blade edge into which the skin can descend, also increasing the angle.
The reasons for this are:
1.the skin pincushions into the spaces between the comb rails, increasing the angle.
2. there is a small gap between the path of the comb rails and the blade edge into which the skin can descend, also increasing the angle.
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Leave my thread alone #6 ... 
I kid ... i kid ...
Btw, jaw line issues are a thing of the past ...
I kid ... i kid ...
Btw, jaw line issues are a thing of the past ...
While we're looking at close ups... notice the top cap.
The R41 top cap is a moderate regulator of pressure. The narrower the top cap the less it pushes the skin away on the top side of the blade after the cutting edge. This allows more of the shavers applied pressure to be apportioned to the razors cutting edge. Wider top caps push that skin away, reducing some of the pressure apportioned to the blade edge, which is a key reason the 2013 version of R41 seems less aggressive. A little more pressure, like with a heavier handle, translates more directly to the blade edge in a 2011 than a 2013. The 2013's top cap bears a greater percentage of the applied pressure than the 2011's top cap.
The R41 top cap is a moderate regulator of pressure. The narrower the top cap the less it pushes the skin away on the top side of the blade after the cutting edge. This allows more of the shavers applied pressure to be apportioned to the razors cutting edge. Wider top caps push that skin away, reducing some of the pressure apportioned to the blade edge, which is a key reason the 2013 version of R41 seems less aggressive. A little more pressure, like with a heavier handle, translates more directly to the blade edge in a 2011 than a 2013. The 2013's top cap bears a greater percentage of the applied pressure than the 2011's top cap.
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- #120
I understand your argument, but wonder what you think of the role of blade exposure. To me, it seems that the closeness of the R41s blade relative to the edge of the tooth-comb may be a more significant factor. What do you think?
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