Gonna try the R41 2011 steep angle approach. Any helpful hints?

[Codfish]

I have been trying the steep angle with my Old Type (Last weekend's $1 yard sale find). I shimmed it with two shims and went steep. The shaves have been very good and quite efficient. I wish that it would go steeper. This is my second DE and I have been using the shallow angle approach with my EJ89 thus far. Since I dabble in woodworking, I can see the logic of a more "scraper" approach, especially where the grain (hair) changes direction erratically. My hypothesis is that you get less lifting of the hair (tear out) this way and reduce that as a source of irritation. The angle forces the hair down slightly more. This makes sense with any ATG passes especially. I am now trying to decide if I should go with the R41, or wait for the RR Slant for my next purchase. The EJ89 needs the ATG and multiple passes to get me smooth enough for my liking. I don't think that I will end up as a collector and the wife will only turn a blind eye to so many purchases.

+1 Very informative post. When anyone pays close attention to what they are doing, the learning process is accelerated IMO. Congratulations on your shaves so far.

Eventually, you will want to try the R41 just out of curiosity. The 2013 model is relatively inexpensive and a great shaver. The 2011 model has its fans of course, but I've tested both and find the differences negligible (at least for my beard). Like you, my R89/De 89s take too many passes to hold my interest.

Your attention to the mechanical action of the steep angle approach matches the findings of the American Medical Association* closely. At the time of their study, many razors were relatively mild (compared to the R41), so they recommended a shallow approach, but their description of cutting physics was exactly the same as yours. Very nice Dr. Fuzzydoesit.

Welcome to B & B! How long have you been DE shaving? You seem to be doing very well at it.

_________
*FACTORS INVOLVED IN SATISFACTORY SHAVING by Hollandar & Casselman, 1937

 

[crnkyplyr]

Stubble: R41. R41 stubble is easy to touch as it's more squared off, not sharpened and prickly like with a multiblade

Here's something I've noticed about DE shaving that I thought was different from my previous multi blade Fusion shaves, and could never figure if it was my imagination, or whether I was just nuts. Maybe both. But, the feel of my stubble in the morning, or after skipping a day, seems to be more uniform than it had before returning to the DE after an absence of 45 or more years. My face has a different feel from how it used to after the beard growth begins to return.

I guess I thought that after a three pass shave, I had made a more uniform, closer bed of whiskers, and that's what accounted for the different feel. Who knows?!?

 

[crnkyplyr]

Okay, I've read this whole thread. I still don't get it.

I am thinking that with any razor there is an optimum angle of attack formed by the comb or bar of the plate and the cutting edge of the blade. Going steeper with the handle closer to the face would seem to lessen the contact of the blade to the skin, thereby decreasing the effectiveness of the cut. On the other hand, using a shallower angle with the handle further from the face would cause the edge of the blade to skim along the surface of the skin, again decreasing the closeness of the shave.

So far, with whatever razor is in hand, I have been trying to get the comb and blade at such an angle that I can feel the blade in definite contact with skin and hear the sound of the hairs being cut. That "optimum" angle for each particular razor's design is going to vary by make and model.

What am I missing?

 

[jamesspo]

Okay, I've read this whole thread. I still don't get it.

I am thinking that with any razor there is an optimum angle of attack formed by the comb or bar of the plate and the cutting edge of the blade. Going steeper with the handle closer to the face would seem to lessen the contact of the blade to the skin, thereby decreasing the effectiveness of the cut. On the other hand, using a shallower angle with the handle further from the face would cause the edge of the blade to skim along the surface of the skin, again decreasing the closeness of the shave.

So far, with whatever razor is in hand, I have been trying to get the comb and blade at such an angle that I can feel the blade in definite contact with skin and hear the sound of the hairs being cut. That "optimum" angle for each particular razor's design is going to vary by make and model.

What am I missing?

Razors that have a high amount of blade exposure (defined as the amount of blade protruding past a line tangent to the cap and guard/comb) have a *range* of angles where the blade makes contact with the skin. As a razor has less and less exposure, this collapses down to just a single angle. With a razor like the R41, you can shave with the comb in contact with your face, or the cap in contact with your face - I use the latter mostly. On the 2011 model, you can even shave with just the blade touching your face with no contact by the cap or guard. That's somewhat like shaving with a shavette of course.

 

[Codfish]

You are correct in that the classic style of shaving is exactly as you describe, and it works for all razors. However, it has downsides, too. I do not speak for steep angle shavers, but the practice as I understand it is to use slight pressure to indent the face, thereby mechanically reducing the effective angle of attacK (see postS #110 and 116). Others can explain it better--I am sure. The technique works best on aggressive razors.

To me, the motion is like scraping a garden hoe across weeds to chop them down--but it does work apparently. Ay the same time, it works--and works well.

 

[fuzzydoesit]

Thank you for the compliments Codfish. I've only been at this for a couple of months, but as with all my obsessions, I dive in head first and try to educate myself. I like to experiment, and after all, skin grows back. Both slicing and scraping approaches make sense to me, but the presence of a comb on a razor when its not meant to touch the skin seems strange. I think that the reports of the R41 stretching the skin and presenting an even surface to the blade make a lot of sense. On a woodworking smoothing plane you want the mouth to be closed up tight to reduce tear out. At a shallow angle the fibers lift up and toward the surface as the blade cuts down. The sole in front of the blade puts pressure on these fibers and prevents that from happening. This is strictly the case in an ATG context. I have also found that where my wiskers lie close to the skin, a steeper angle can cut them much closer, but a shalow angle cause some slicing along the length and leaves some behind. I have lots more to learn, so please take this all with a grain of salt. I am but a noob.

 

[aimsport]

I respect OP greatly, but this thread has spun out of control. It serves nobody to use words heavily laden with negative connotation that wander far afield of reality. This thread has been inundated with them.

A few examples are in order.

"Hype"
Usage: "The R41 is a hype magnet"
Hype implies exaggeration.
Facts: It is fact that a very long lasting BBS++ with totally calm skin is the result of properly engaging the R41 comb. Not hype, true excitement. If there is hype to be found it is in the exaggerations of the "dangers" of the R41.

"Bragging"
Usage: "Early on members bragged about their abilities with it"
As with "hype", "bragging" implies some degree of exaggeration, and worse, prideful boasting as a motive.
Facts: With few exceptions, best I can tell, I have found B&B members are motivated to share exciting findings to help others, not to boast.

"Macho"
Usage: "and there was such a macho aura that shavers would..."
Again, a negative connotation implying dim-witted testosterone-driven virile posturing.
Facts: Again, the people who have succeeded with comb-engaged R41 shaving have encouraged other to fear not. The do not brag about how "macho" they are for having mastered the technique.

"Tell Stories"
Usage: "tell stories about how they started using it"
Telling stories often implies fictional accounts.
Facts: Sharing what works with comb-engaged R41 shaving has been remarkably consistent. In contrast, the deceitful expose and discredit themselves over time through their inconsistency. I have learned much from people who made great observations, based on experience and success with comb-engaged R41 shaving. They are sharing from common experience and advancing comb-engaged R41 shaving. I am grateful.

"Classic vs Scraping a Garden Hoe"
Usage: "To me, the motion is like scraping a garden hoe across weeds to chop them down"
Puhlease. Scraping with a garden hoe usually involves moving the dirt... which in this analogy is skin.
Facts: Engaging the comb of the R41 does more to protect the skin in achieving a two-pass BBS, than the more passes with a mild razor. There is no sting, at all. Scraping implies exfoliation, falsely. With basic proper prep and basic tuning of the R41 comb-engaged angle, there is no tugging either. Fact is, far too many newbies have gone overboard with scalding hot prep, over brushing, too many passes the sum of which result in pink sore skin escalating into protracted redness...the majority of those with "mild" razors. There is another way for all of us, including newbies.

"Cart-Type habits"
Usage: "Can it result in "cart-type" habits that need to be unlearned?"
Again, the connotation is that somehow engaging the comb on an R41 is inferior, cartridge like, and somehow a "habit"
Facts: Blade awareness and sensing of true angle is heightened by comb-engaged R41 shaving. This has helped me in all other forms of shaving. My mild razor shaving has improved. My shavette shaving has improved. My straight razor shaving has improved... but this last one is due to the bar being raised even higher on how durable a BBS can be.

"Hampers their Development"
Usage: "Does it send them in a direction that actually hampers their development?"
The implication is that learning a technique will somehow cripple a new shaver. Really?
Facts: Be it marksmanship, swordsmanship, marshal arts, dance, painting, sailing, driving, dancing, physical intimacy... learning multiple techniques is the path to true mastery. There is no "hampering" going on in learning the blade from multiple vantage points.

"Shortcut vs Classic Skills"
Usage: " Is it seen as a shortcut to the classic skills they will need for non-aggressive razors?"
Implies skipping key steps, arriving at a result efficiently but with some inherent compromise.
Facts: Well, OP, you got me there. There is no more efficient way to totally calm skin and an extremely durable BBS than shaving with an R41 comb-engaged. In fact tough beards and ultra-sensitive skin shavers both benefit from the lightness and efficiency. If I had an issue with R41 comb-engaged shaves it would be that the shaves are done before the luxury of a third lather is required.

OP by his own admission did not follow the majority of the suggestions including suggestion #1, and IMHO quit too soon. His decision to quit is his prerogative, but the findings I believe are not definitive. Another poster in another thread did one hundred iterations, but used one soap that offers less protection for beginners and did ATG passes every time. Others have rushed things or tried three and four passes and quit.

The number of people that have had their "aha" moment and now use the R41 with its comb engaged is growing. Some use it nearly exclusively, others frequently and others only when the need for a truly durable BBS arises.

I hope that neither OP nor that 100-shave wetshaver give up their R41 and give it another go later. I believe in order for that to happen, more and more of you that are having success with engaging the comb on the R41 need to speak up. So speak up.

Engage the R41 comb, don't scrape. Also, as for "pressure"...no more pressure than the weight of the handle is required.

Oh, and I'm back from my timeout... but based on the size of this one post, perhaps I should take another.

#6.

 

[aimsport]

Okay, I've read this whole thread. I still don't get it.

I am thinking that with any razor there is an optimum angle of attack formed by the comb or bar of the plate and the cutting edge of the blade. Going steeper with the handle closer to the face would seem to lessen the contact of the blade to the skin, thereby decreasing the effectiveness of the cut. On the other hand, using a shallower angle with the handle further from the face would cause the edge of the blade to skim along the surface of the skin, again decreasing the closeness of the shave.

So far, with whatever razor is in hand, I have been trying to get the comb and blade at such an angle that I can feel the blade in definite contact with skin and hear the sound of the hairs being cut. That "optimum" angle for each particular razor's design is going to vary by make and model.

What am I missing?

You are not missing much! Optimum angle(s) flows from the design. So true.

For many razors increasingly engaging the comb has the effect of pushing the blade away from the skin. In contrast, engaging the R41 comb stretches the skin and leads it right up to the blade. The R41 uses exposure, not gap to achieve closeness. Shallow angled shaving disengages the comb. For mild razors a shallow angle has the effect of coaxing a little more aggression out of the blade as the skin is allowed to dip into the gap found in many mild razors more deeply than with the comb engaged.

 

[aimsport]

Question: Does step angle shaving slow or stop the development of other good technical skills?

Nope.

 

[aimsport]

Now you can start maximizing the duration of your BBS, by tuning your blade choice. For a normal BBS, but easier to have a smooth shave, go sharper. For cutting the beard hair deeper down, (but amazingly without in-growns), much longer lasting BBS, but more skill required for a very smooth shave, go less-sharp. Smooth is a mandatory. For example, Super Iridiums give me an easy smooth shave even with mediocre prep. Dorcos require better prep and more care to get a very smooth shave (very attainable though), but the BBSs lasts much much longer.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.
I tried Dorcos st-301's. I got a smooth shave. Dorcos are good for 1 maybe 2 shaves as a rule. However a few hours after the shave I have more stubble than after using the Polsilver.

I like Dorcos. It's just with the number of shave I get with the polsilver's, they are cheaper...

Dorcos give me a smooth shave too. That means your prep is solid.

By tune your sharpness I am talking about fine tuning the height each hair is pulled, exposing more of the shaft for the second pass. The sharper the blade the less deep the second cut is.

 

[Double shot]

This pic is very helpful in showing the actual angle the blade is cutting the beard which is not a super steep angle.

I don't need to understand the science or physics behind it I just know when I shave like this I get a super close shave in 2 passes(sometimes WTG only) without redness or irritation. The lack of irritation post shave is less than with most of my other razors....I don't know why and don't really care.

The only trouble I have is some tugging on my chin that has made shaving with the R41 steep angle less enjoyable but I am working on correcting that.

It may not be for everybody but for me is not hype or macho. I don't feel any more hip or cool to shave with it that's for sure.

 

[Avincenty]

That's my face there. More theory on my experience. I also have a tougher time keeping the same steep angle on my chin than on the rest of my face. I think it is due to the pliability of the skin. My skin everywhere in my face except my chin and mustache is a lot meatier so when the comb hits steep it forces the skin above it towards the top cap like in the picture. On tauter portions of you face the skin wont bend as much towards the cap increasing the blade/skin angle, therefore pulling, tugging or skipping. (much more pronounced with the 2011 for me) My automatic response is to adjust the handle angle to a less steep but still engaging the comb until it reaches the proper skin to blade angle that cuts whiskers.

 

[hthomas]

Dorcos give me a smooth shave too. That means your prep is solid.

By tune your sharpness I am talking about fine tuning the height each hair is pulled, exposing more of the shaft for the second pass. The sharper the blade the less deep the second cut is.

I
Thank you I can understand the theory. I guess my "tuned blade " may be a Crystal .Red or who knows. ?

 

[Luc]

Thread closed at OP request