Frowning Razors - cause and effect?

[StillShaving]

Frowning razors are not that uncommon, such as the one in the recent thread is this razor repairable?

I have wondered why they are not even more common. Seems the recommended honing approach of using a X-pattern nearly guarantees a frown will develop. Since soon after the stroke starts the heal is off the hone and the toe is the last to meet the hone, so less metal is removed from either end. My question is when using a narrow hone, how does one manage to avoid this problem?

I have never used a frowning razor, but I imagine they are not nice to shave with, easier to dig into ones face. But is that really true, given the number of frowning razors which have been resold, the original owner must have managed to shave comfortably with them?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Bad honing causes frowns. Any time you bevel a razor you should remove whatever minor frowning effect your x stroke honing in the past might have caused. The frowning on vintage razors was caused by bad beveling, not refining or polishing with an x stroke. The amount of metal removed in any stage after beveling is so insignificant that it would take days of nonstop honing to cause a noticeable frown.

Also note that there is not even pressure the whole length of the blade unless you are using a machine to do the honing. The tang and scales have weight. You are either exerting force downward or upward at the tang and possibly elsewhere. It's not as simple as "The center spends more time on the hone so it wears faster".

 

[mparker762]

Normal X stroke honing doesn't cause frowns, because you tend to use more pressure at the heel and toe even if you're consciously trying to avoid it. IME the major cause of frowns tends to be improper grinding which caused a warped blade. From the ebay razors I've seen I'd say that improper honing on narrow hones is a distinctly secondary cause of frowns, especially on reasonably modern (post-1880ish) blades. I don't think I've actually seen more than one or two razors that got their frown purely by bad honing, all the rest had warpage to some extent. I guess you could argue that the warped blades could have been honed with the proper technique to avoid causing frowns, but I'm inclined to give the grinder a large chunk of the blame, because once that blade is warped it's tremendously more difficult to hone it year after year, decade after decade without it eventually developing a frown - you have to focus your honing attention as much towards avoiding the frown as you do actually getting it sharp.

Edit: It's hard to tell about that razor in the post you referenced, because the photos on the offhand side were so blurry, but from the wear patterns that I can see it looks like a bent razor. The different wear patterns on the two sides of the spine and bevel are the giveaway, though again the sole photo of one side is pretty blurry. If you see a razor with a frown and it's worn more in the center of the spine on one side and more on the toe or heel and toe on the other, then you can bet that it's utterly bent. Sometimes the spine is straighter than the edge so the telltale wear patterns aren't as obvious without careful examination of the bevels, sometimes the edge is straighter than the spine so it looks worse than it is.

 

[LarryAndro]

Even though honing might not be the primary cause of frowns, in these threads we might want to emphasize some things a little more...

• X stroke used so blade doesn't go over same hone area.
• Circular, and other pattern strokes can be used to ensure every section of blade has equal hone time.

There are more aspects to X stroke, etc. Don't hold me to an exhaustive list of reasons for the X. My point is that we possibly should state more often or clearly that the X stroke can be combined with other honing patterns.

 

[mparker762]

[*]X stroke used so blade doesn't go over same hone area.

Sure it does. Each side of the blade may see a slightly different area of the hone, but a given side will see the same stretch of hone each time, whether you're doing an X or going straight down the hone.

[*]Circular, and other pattern strokes can be used to ensure every section of blade has equal hone time.
There are more aspects to X stroke, etc. Don't hold me to an exhaustive list of reasons for the X. My point is that we possibly should state more often or clearly that the X stroke can be combined with other honing patterns.

Feel free to expound on the marvels of the X stroke yourself, as I don't use it much. Everybody's got their preferences...

 

[LarryAndro]

MParker762, you have a good point. Yes, with only an X pass, the same part of the blade goes over the same part of the hone. The sentence that needs to be added, which I didn't and which often isn't, is that the X stroke needs to be combined with other type passes to make sure the same part of the blade doesn't continually go over the same part of the blade.

Good point! And, I did poorly in expounding. But, this makes my original point. Don't worship the X. Alternate with other passes. Always making sure that every section of the blade is equally honed, and isn't always honed on the same spot.

Also, by the way, I don't use the X stroke much either. Maybe, a modified X. But, no part of the blade ever goes off the edge of the hone.

 

[Neil Miller]

I agree with mparker about the grind being the main issue. On nearly every razor I've honed that had a frown it corresponded with a poor grind and/or a warp in the blade - usual tell-tale signs are a big bevel in the middle on one side and a narrow or barely visible bevel on the opposite side. I would imagine that over the years people have concentrated on the middle section trying to get it sharp, hence the frown developing.

Regards,
Neil

 

[richmondesi]

X strokes are not to blame for frowns. If anything, they would be to blame for razors honed too much at the toe and not the heel (in the hands of someone not doing it effectually).

I personally use an X or half-stroke X on every razor. But then again, I don't worship at the altar of the mathematically flat hone, though