So far, I've found them very similar yet the PLL seems to be capable of yielding a keener edge, but it's pretty close. One advantage of the BS is that it costs less and you can get them in larger stones. I haven't had a lot of honing experience on either so someone who has learned both stones well might find them to be either more different or more similar than I have. I plan to do more honing on both to see how they compare as I improve on each.
Finishing with a Black Shadow
- Thread starter silverlifter
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- #22
Now that I have been using this for a while, I am impressed with the edges. I still have a lot of learning to do with it, but on some specific razors, I am getting consistently sharp and comfortable edges.
I've been slowly trying different combinations, and I have had the best results with no slurry, a little lather in the water, and quite a few laps (100 on stainless, ~60 on carbon).
I've just begun experimenting with oil, and I'll see how that goes ovr time.
I've been slowly trying different combinations, and I have had the best results with no slurry, a little lather in the water, and quite a few laps (100 on stainless, ~60 on carbon).
I've just begun experimenting with oil, and I'll see how that goes ovr time.
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- #23
After three months of using nothing but this stone to finish with, I'm leaning towards some conclusions. Note that I have only been honing slightly longer than this, so none of what follows is authoratative, it is just what I have observed. And, I'm posting it because that is one of the best ways to draw out people who actually know what they are talking about 
So, I've honed a variety of different razors (carbon and stainless), and grinds (from wedges to hollows), and in terms of concistency, this is what I have found. I come off an 8k Naniwa Gouken edge that is already treetopping.
The Black Shadow is slow. I have no problem with this, but if you are looking for 20 laps and done, this approach hasn't worked for me. I stopped counting laps after a month or so, as it really wasn't helpful. I just keep doing laps until the stone feels like it is ready for the next step. Yes, there are next steps!
Multiple media work best. I start with a light slurry, so light that you only really see it when you do your first lap and the blade pushes it together into a puddle in front of the edge. I have tried with an 800 grit diamond plate, the bout that came with the BS, and a Mikawa Shiro Nagura. I get best results with the latter two, favouring the nagura.
Then I go to a super light lather: I drag a piece of Felce Aromatica up and down the stone once or twice and use my fingers to mix in into the water. This provides a nice slick media where you can feel every bit of the stone under the blade. Finally, I finish with plain water: this is the shortest step.
Working by feel is effective. I struggled with this as, like a newbie, I was looking for reproducability to try and understand what was going on. Perhaps I would have got there with honing the same razor every time, but with different steel and grinds, there were too many variables.
Then it is just a case of strop on linen and leather (60/60) and shave. I find the edges to be sharp enough for my old man grey whiskers, and yet very comfortable. Hopefully, others with a Black Shadow will chime in with their experiences, and people new to the stone wil find this helpful.
So, I've honed a variety of different razors (carbon and stainless), and grinds (from wedges to hollows), and in terms of concistency, this is what I have found. I come off an 8k Naniwa Gouken edge that is already treetopping.
The Black Shadow is slow. I have no problem with this, but if you are looking for 20 laps and done, this approach hasn't worked for me. I stopped counting laps after a month or so, as it really wasn't helpful. I just keep doing laps until the stone feels like it is ready for the next step. Yes, there are next steps!
Multiple media work best. I start with a light slurry, so light that you only really see it when you do your first lap and the blade pushes it together into a puddle in front of the edge. I have tried with an 800 grit diamond plate, the bout that came with the BS, and a Mikawa Shiro Nagura. I get best results with the latter two, favouring the nagura.
Then I go to a super light lather: I drag a piece of Felce Aromatica up and down the stone once or twice and use my fingers to mix in into the water. This provides a nice slick media where you can feel every bit of the stone under the blade. Finally, I finish with plain water: this is the shortest step.
Working by feel is effective. I struggled with this as, like a newbie, I was looking for reproducability to try and understand what was going on. Perhaps I would have got there with honing the same razor every time, but with different steel and grinds, there were too many variables.
- Under the slurry, the feel can be a little gritty almost; you can feel resistance albeit very faint. I continue with this step until that feeling completely disappears (or I am completely habituated to it). This can take a while. Like a long while.
- With the lather, the feel is slick with a tiny amount of drag: so tiny that you'll only notice it when it is gone. And when it is gone, it'll feel like the blade could zip off the end of the stone under it's own steam; almost like hydroplaning. This marks the end of the lather step.
- Finally, with plain water, a slight resistance returns (likely again just a perception issue after the last lather laps). This won't last long, and when it is done you just feel like the laps are superfluous: you can feel there is nothing more to be done.
Then it is just a case of strop on linen and leather (60/60) and shave. I find the edges to be sharp enough for my old man grey whiskers, and yet very comfortable. Hopefully, others with a Black Shadow will chime in with their experiences, and people new to the stone wil find this helpful.
How did it perform with oil? I prefer most slates with oil, but that’s me.After three months of using nothing but this stone to finish with, I'm leaning towards some conclusions. Note that I have only been honing slightly longer than this, so none of what follows is authoratative, it is just what I have observed. And, I'm posting it because that is one of the best ways to draw out people who actually know what they are talking about
So, I've honed a variety of different razors (carbon and stainless), and grinds (from wedges to hollows), and in terms of concistency, this is what I have found. I come off an 8k Naniwa Gouken edge that is already treetopping.
The Black Shadow is slow. I have no problem with this, but if you are looking for 20 laps and done, this approach hasn't worked for me. I stopped counting laps after a month or so, as it really wasn't helpful. I just keep doing laps until the stone feels like it is ready for the next step. Yes, there are next steps!
Multiple media work best. I start with a light slurry, so light that you only really see it when you do your first lap and the blade pushes it together into a puddle in front of the edge. I have tried with an 800 grit diamond plate, the bout that came with the BS, and a Mikawa Shiro Nagura. I get best results with the latter two, favouring the nagura.
Then I go to a super light lather: I drag a piece of Felce Aromatica up and down the stone once or twice and use my fingers to mix in into the water. This provides a nice slick media where you can feel every bit of the stone under the blade. Finally, I finish with plain water: this is the shortest step.
Working by feel is effective. I struggled with this as, like a newbie, I was looking for reproducability to try and understand what was going on. Perhaps I would have got there with honing the same razor every time, but with different steel and grinds, there were too many variables.
- Under the slurry, the feel can be a little gritty almost; you can feel resistance albeit very faint. I continue with this step until that feeling completely disappears (or I am completely habituated to it). This can take a while. Like a long while.
- With the lather, the feel is slick with a tiny amount of drag: so tiny that you'll only notice it when it is gone. And when it is gone, it'll feel like the blade could zip off the end of the stone under it's own steam; almost like hydroplaning. This marks the end of the lather step.
- Finally, with plain water, a slight resistance returns (likely again just a perception issue after the last lather laps). This won't last long, and when it is done you just feel like the laps are superfluous: you can feel there is nothing more to be done.
Then it is just a case of strop on linen and leather (60/60) and shave. I find the edges to be sharp enough for my old man grey whiskers, and yet very comfortable. Hopefully, others with a Black Shadow will chime in with their experiences, and people new to the stone wil find this helpful.
- Thread starter
- #25
I haven't gone there yet. That would mean just the one step? Oil only?
Yeah. Come off your next finest stone, then try 50ish light laps with oil.
Strop and shave.
It might soak in to the stone a little, so maybe buy some degreaser in case you don’t prefer it. Or it might just come off with dish soap.
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- #27
Ta! My Ark is likely going to take another month to get here from Oz, so I have time to experiment.
Geez. Is someone swimming it over?Ta! My Ark is likely going to take another month to get here from Oz, so I have time to experiment.
- Thread starter
- #29
They tie it to half a dozen rosellas and hope for the best!
Great thread, I have one inbound and can copy your steps after I'm done on my coti.
When you guys talk "oil" you mean mineral oil? Or can I finally find use for my bottle of glycerine?
When you guys talk "oil" you mean mineral oil? Or can I finally find use for my bottle of glycerine?
Mineral oil. I've not tried glycerine.
If I were to do the experiment. First I’d use oil because it is a known quantity. Get to grips with that, then strip the oil and do it that same with glycerine and compare. If it is not as good, at least the glycerine should clean off easily before you go back to oil.
Here are some pictures, honed on a coticule, then 100 laps on the Bs with oil an another 60 laps with water and oil. Pictures were taken after stropping.
What do you guys think ?
That's my third razor I've honed
What do you guys think ?
That's my third razor I've honed
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Lots of deep random stria reaching the edge, and a rougher secondary bevel. The secondary bevel does not appear to remove the deep random stria.
What is the B’s? did it improve the Coticule bevel?
Was the secondary bevel intentional? Do you know where the deep random stria came from?
What is the B’s? did it improve the Coticule bevel?
Was the secondary bevel intentional? Do you know where the deep random stria came from?
What we think is of only marginal relevance. The first and most necessary question, that only you can answer: How does it shave?
I think the coticule was not able to refine the work that was done on the previous stones. The BS used with oil needs a good edge to improve.
If you are testing just the performance of the BS, it might be worth while to at least take it to an 8k, or higer grit if you have, before going to the BS.
In general, these types of images are almost impossible to interpret. Even if you have better magnification it can be tricky to judge an edge by how the bevel looks. However, because you can see even at this magnification level that the apex is jagged, and random deep striations are visible, there is probably room for improvement.
The edge might still be worth shave testing. Coticule edges generally don't look that greate, but can surprise you. The BS should have been able to clean up the coticule results though.
I have shaved with some nice looking edges that were terrible, and i have gotten really good shaves from bad looking bevels. Coticules works in mysterious waysI tried it now, defintely smoother than before, no burn at all using aftershave, for it's almost fine
But hard to judge for me what a perfect honed razor is like because I only have 2 honed by myself
As long as you are happy. As long as there is no sting, and it is cutting close with an acceptable level of tugging or without tugging, everything is fine, but can always get better.Similar threads
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