Naniwa SS warp, other alternatives?

[TheBeast]

My Naniwa 12k Super Stone just warped. I left it wet, laying on the table. I got busy doing something else after stropping the razor that I finnished on that Stone so I forgot to dry it. Usually I dry it by leaving it leaning against the wall standing Up. Two hours was enough to pick up a very noticable warp. When I tried to bend it with my hands I cracked it in two halfs (insert sad and angry at myself noise)... one half is longer then the other so I could still use it but it's still very bent.

This Has Also happened to my 3k by the way... And my 8k. The 3k is warped a lot but I don't use it a lot, don't really need it because I have the 5k. The 8k I was able to bend with my fingers, let dry and it looks straight, even lapped it flat in like two minutes so it's good.

And as my 1k is getting too thin for comfort, I need some new stones. For a bevel setter, I want the Shapton 1.5k pro. The 5k and 8k still hold, but will eventually be replaced by shapton pros.

But to replace the Naniwa 12k? Can it be straightened? I heard that Shapton glass HR 16k is dissapointing. What about the pro 12k? Does it produce a Nice finnish to shave with?

I never really liked the Nani 12k finnish. I like pasted balsa with 0.5um much more. And I will soon have 0.25 and 0.1 micron strops set up as Well. I go to 0.5um from 8k... so I Guess I don't even need a synthetic finisher...?

For now I am going to use Up the Naniwa 1k, replace it with Shapton pro 1.5k when it's gone. Stick with nani 5k and 8k as polishers and finnish on pasted balsa. Seems solid but I'm just frustrated about that 12k going like that... Even when I didn't like shaving off it... I just thought one of these days I would max it out and have like a breakthrough experience.

If you could share your experience with Shapton pros, mainly the 12k, maybe compare it to the Naniwa 12k, that would be great. Or the glass HR ones Up to 16k (I dont really want them... I like a thick classic Brick). Or maybe give an opinion on how this can be handled otherwise. Thanks.

Just to let you know I am not ready to Jump in the pool of natural stones. I dont understand them at all, I just think there are some called jnats, couticoules and arks. Not even sure of that... I'd like to Stick with synthetics and Diamond pasted balsa for now.

 

[Herrenberg]

Another one to consider as a 12k replacement: the Suehiro Kouseki 10K. Some promising reports here: Has anyone used the Suehiro Kouseki 10K? - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/has-anyone-used-the-suehiro-kouseki-10k.637017/

I have one, but have not given it a sufficient workout yet to provide a useful opinion. There's nothing like a natural stone rabbit hole for making you neglect your synthetics.

If you are basing your inferences about the Shapton Glass 16K on anything I posted, know that I eventually concluded that my particular stone is defective.

 

[Kyle89]

Mine gets warped once in a while but a soak for a few minutes straightens it out. Someone told me that a soak for a minute or two is a great way to ruin the stone but alas, it still exists. It's going to be wet anyway.

Keep them around and try stuff I guess- might turn into a little travel touch up stone.

 

[Frank Shaves]

How thick is your Naniwa 12k?

Mine two Naniwa 12k stones are 20 mm thick. Have never had a problem with warping. Great stone(s).

 

[TheBeast]

How thick is your Naniwa 12k?

Mine two Naniwa 12k stones are 20 mm thick. Have never had a problem with warping. Great stone(s).

I have the 10mm super stones.

I dont like how the swarf gets imbeded into the stone quite quickly and needs either a rub or a quick lap. And off the 1k I Can never shave, the bevel will only get refined on the 5k at which point it Can Also treetop hair.

That is why I would like to get the Shapton Pros for my progression. Or the glass HR. But I can't decide which ones or justify the purchase just because I dont like one little thing... but the warping is kind of a big deal. decisions decisions...

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

For me the Naniwa Fuji 8K finishes better than my SP 12K did. This is also refined enough to jump to a hard Ark. I personally don’t consider either one of these as finishers but the Fuji is closer to a finisher in my experience.

The Naniwa Falcon / Hayabusa 4K is enough to jump to one of my JNAT’s.

For some, a synthetic edge is the bees knees. I have a Suehiro 20K and for me it just doesn’t feel as good as a natural. I could absolutely live off of 3 stones: a quality bevel setter, the Falcon 4K, and a quality JNAT. But I have a medical condition that causes me to keep buying more stones, both synths and naturals. It’s messed up. I do need a quality botan nagura. Theoretically I might be able to go bevel setter > JNAT + Botan > JNAT + tomo……..

 

[TheBeast]

For me the Naniwa Fuji 8K finishes better than my SP 12K did. This is also refined enough to jump to a hard Ark. I personally don’t consider either one of these as finishers but the Fuji is closer to a finisher in my experience.

The Naniwa Falcon / Hayabusa 4K is enough to jump to one of my JNAT’s.

For some, a synthetic edge is the bees knees. I have a Suehiro 20K and for me it just doesn’t feel as good as a natural. I could absolutely live off of 3 stones: a quality bevel setter, the Falcon 4K, and a quality JNAT. But I have a medical condition that causes me to keep buying more stones, both synths and naturals. It’s messed up. I do need a quality botan nagura. Theoretically I might be able to go bevel setter > JNAT + Botan > JNAT + tomo……..

I have a similar medical condition. But I buy All sorts of stuff, not just stones or shaving equipment.

Right now, I won't be getting anywhere Near naturals. I will get there eventually.

For now I am looking to get the best shave possible from balsa strops. And to get there I need a reliable bevel setter and a polisher, probably something in between to make it faster.

Shapton 1.5k, 5k, 8k should do the trick just Nice. Also reading Up about suehiro, that 10k sounds fabulous.

 

[Gamma]

If I was going to finish on diamond, I wouldn't even bother with a 12k.
I would go to pastes after 5k normally.

 

[TheBeast]

If I was going to finish on diamond, I wouldn't even bother with a 12k.
I would go to pastes after 5k normally.

I go to paste from 8k, but I will give going from 5k a try. If it works just the same, I'll only get the 1.5k and 5k pros to replace my superstones and hopefully will enjoy working with then more.

Later on I can try different synth finisher - the Kouseki 10k and close the chapter on synths/diamond. And start All over on naturals after that.

Sounds like a plan to keep me busy for months.

 

[Gamma]

A lot depends on technique used with the pastes but when all is good going from 5k gives the steel a break and lets the edge develop nicely on the diamond slurry. Of course everything leading up to and including the work on the 5k needs to be on-point.

If I wanted an expensive 10k I'd go for the Gokumyo over the Kouseki.
Actually, I would probably get the 15k Gok...

 

[TheBeast]

A lot depends on technique used with the pastes but when all is good going from 5k gives the steel a break and lets the edge develop nicely on the diamond slurry. Of course everything leading up to and including the work on the 5k needs to be on-point.

If I wanted an expensive 10k I'd go for the Gokumyo over the Kouseki.
Actually, I would probably get the 15k Gok...

I seem to be able to shave off the 5k. Not comfortably, but the hair is being removed. Which should mean that going to diamond balsa should be alright. Anyway, will try, will see.

Interesting about the 15k Gok. But your opinion got me thinking that after bevel set on 1.5k and refinement on 5k (when on-point), I would be all right with either the 10k gok/kou, or the 15k gok. With balsa strops I would have basically four finish options. I would have to try them all (gok 10k,15k/kouseki 10k) in order to know which one is for me. And they are expensive so I don't want to have to do that...

I'll stick to balsa with naniwas up to 8k and shaptons up to 5k. Learn and experiment. Then buy one of those suehiros when I will have a feeling it is time and I decided which one. Thanks for opinions.

 

[Herrenberg]

Goaded by this thread, I pulled out my neglected Kouseki and honed. I was impressed. It was the most comfortable synthetic-edge shave I've ever had. Now I have to see whether I can get that edge every time.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I have the 10mm super stones.

I dont like how the swarf gets imbeded into the stone quite quickly and needs either a rub or a quick lap. And off the 1k I Can never shave, the bevel will only get refined on the 5k at which point it Can Also treetop hair.

That is why I would like to get the Shapton Pros for my progression. Or the glass HR. But I can't decide which ones or justify the purchase just because I dont like one little thing... but the warping is kind of a big deal. decisions decisions...

I have heard other people say that the Naniwa 10 mm stones warp. Sorry to hear you did not buy the 20 mm version.

I don't see much difference with swarf clogging between Naniwa SS, Naniwa Chosera and Shapton HR. They all clog. I just keep lapping them and don't worry about it.

 

[TheBeast]

I just had a shave with an edge off of 8k and 0.5um Diamond balsa and the 12k nani SS. They were quite close in comfort. I was comparing the two razors with different edges out of curioaity.


I did finnish with about 10 veeery ligth edge trailing laps on the Nani 12k.

I think I dont particulary need anything synthetic Higher than 5k, maybe 8k if I'm gonna finnish on 0.5, 0.25 and 0.1 Diamond pasted balsa. Those Diamond balsa strops are way more cost efficient than a high grit synth.

If a Kouseki 10k or a Gokumyo 15k, maybe a 20k make good edges for some, I am Happy for them but I believe the edge Can be and should be tailored for everyones particular need.

Thats why I will replace my Naniwas with shaptons, but only Up to 8k. Shaptons won't warp like Naniwas, hopefully, and as they are harder they won't load up as fast - which makes me really annoyed for some reason.

In the near future I will consider a gokumyo 15k / 20k to have a high grit synthetic Stone. But only if I won't be able to achieve my dream edge on the pasted balsa. My face seems to like a very keen edge.

 

[Tanuki]

I have no problems with any of my 20mm Naniwa SS warping. I use them splash and go, typically with about 50/50 water and Krud Kutter. The Krud Kutter seems to limit swarf penetration, so I simply rinse and rack dry on edge. I don't hit the DMT flattening plate until actual flattening is required, not just swarf cleaning.

My face and my diamond balsa agree with you on very keen edges. Sharp is smooth.

 

[TheBeast]

I have no problems with any of my 20mm Naniwa SS warping. I use them splash and go, typically with about 50/50 water and Krud Kutter. The Krud Kutter seems to limit swarf penetration, so I simply rinse and rack dry on edge. I don't hit the DMT flattening plate until actual flattening is required, not just swarf cleaning.

My face and my diamond balsa agree with you on very keen edges. Sharp is smooth.

I should have gotten the 20mm as well. No matter, I will epoxy them on some 20mm acrylic later. I would like to get out a little more out of my investment.

How do you remove swarf then? Or are you only using such a light touch that it goes away with just some finger rubbing? I find myself using a little more pressure and lapping more frequently. It cuts like twice faster then. But I have nowhere to hurry so...

Yes, sharp and keen seems to work for me really well. A shavette with a Feather blade moves really smoothly across my hair. But somehow irritates me. R41 safety + Feather is the same. Other things pull, straights that I didn't get keen/sharp enough pull and skimp across in little uncomfortable jumps or how-should-I-call-them.

 

[Mitzie]

Glued to ceramic tile:

 

[Tanuki]

How do you remove swarf then? Or are you only using such a light touch that it goes away with just some finger rubbing

I never use much pressure. I use less pressure on each stone as I go through my tight Chosera/Superstone progression. Also I decrease pressure lap by lap on each individual stone as I go through my 20 or so laps. So by the time I am polishing on the 12k, pressure is as light as I can make it. The last lap all I am doing is looking for the feedback that says 'done'.

With the Keen Kutter in my lubrication mix, swarf penetrates little if at all. So finger rubbing usually cleans swarf off for the 12k. Less so on the Chosera 600, or the SS 1000 or 3000. Then I might use an old nylon kitchen brush, lightly.

I don't know that Keen Kutter works any better than some other detergent/cleaner product. I just have it handy because I use it at 100% strength for honing razors and knives on diamond plates.

The swarf accumulation pattern tells me when its time to flatten, but I wash it off before I use my DMT lapping plate (formerly Atoma 400).

I usually flatten by feel rather than with a pencil grid. I go for frequent, quick flattening, rather than the less frequent, heavier removal I did with the Atoma. The next razor's swarf pattern tells me if I got the stone properly flattened.

For edge maintenance I'm almost 100% reliant on my three strop pasted balsa progression, and mainly just my one highest diamond grit. If one of my vintage SR problem children is more demanding I might back up to 8000 or even 5000.

For full restoration work, I might even be honing through my diamond plate progression before jumping back up to the top of the synthetic progression.

I'm starting to play with natural finishers, but that is another story entirely. It's driven by curiosity rather than any issue with shave/edge quality.

It cuts like twice faster then. But I have nowhere to hurry so...

I took up restoration honing for the challenge of a delicate skill and the zen of the process. I can't read the feedback well when I'm in a rush.

I still can get frustrated and hurried by some bad boy vintage razors in the bevel setting stage, the ones I bought for for their good looks, reputation, or rarity. My restoration queue is pretty long, so I can always send an really annoying razor to the back of the line.

 

[TheBeast]

I never use much pressure. I use less pressure on each stone as I go through my tight Chosera/Superstone progression. Also I decrease pressure lap by lap on each individual stone as I go through my 20 or so laps. So by the time I am polishing on the 12k, pressure is as light as I can make it. The last lap all I am doing is looking for the feedback that says 'done'.

With the Keen Kutter in my lubrication mix, swarf penetrates little if at all. So finger rubbing usually cleans swarf off for the 12k. Less so on the Chosera 600, or the SS 1000 or 3000. Then I might use an old nylon kitchen brush, lightly.

I don't know that Keen Kutter works any better than some other detergent/cleaner product. I just have it handy because I use it at 100% strength for honing razors and knives on diamond plates.

View attachment 1728636View attachment 1728637

The swarf accumulation pattern tells me when its time to flatten, but I wash it off before I use my DMT lapping plate (formerly Atoma 400).

I usually flatten by feel rather than with a pencil grid. I go for frequent, quick flattening, rather than the less frequent, heavier removal I did with the Atoma. The next razor's swarf pattern tells me if I got the stone properly flattened.

For edge maintenance I'm almost 100% reliant on my three strop pasted balsa progression, and mainly just my one highest diamond grit. If one of my vintage SR problem children is more demanding I might back up to 8000 or even 5000.

For full restoration work, I might even be honing through my diamond plate progression before jumping back up to the top of the synthetic progression.

I'm starting to play with natural finishers, but that is another story entirely. It's driven by curiosity rather than any issue with shave/edge quality.



I took up restoration honing for the challenge of a delicate skill and the zen of the process. I can't read the feedback well when I'm in a rush.

I still can get frustrated and hurried by some bad boy vintage razors in the bevel setting stage, the ones I bought for for their good looks, reputation, or rarity. My restoration queue is pretty long, so I can always send an really annoying razor to the back of the line.

Thanks for sharing in detail. The Truth is I have no idea what to feel for because of the lack of experience. But it's inspiring to think where I Can get with practice, it sounds really cool to be able to do that.

Fingers crossed I will make my way to a similar level. I think I got heavily influenced by the "pick Up a razor and do this" type of guides. Doesn't work for me. I can't just replicate what someone does. Too many differences in what is on the table.

I think finding a zen, embracing the Challenge is underrated. Even more so, understanding. Not just general rambling and repeating stuff that I found cool (mostly because I didn't Fullu understand it). So I will write this for myself:

The goal is the edge. The journey is not a burden. The journey is the reward. Embrace the journey. "The feeling for it" will come with repetition. The repetition only makes sense after having a full understanding of events taking place. Each blade is Unique. Find it, understand it, find out what it needs, then give it what it needs. Test, prove, progress. Perfection takes time, patience and determination.

I should learn it by heart...

 

[Tanuki]

Thanks for sharing in detail. The Truth is I have no idea what to feel for because of the lack of experience. But it's inspiring to think where I Can get with practice, it sounds really cool to be able to do that.

Fingers crossed I will make my way to a similar level. I think I got heavily influenced by the "pick Up a razor and do this" type of guides. Doesn't work for me. I can't just replicate what someone does. Too many differences in what is on the table.

I think finding a zen, embracing the Challenge is underrated. Even more so, understanding. Not just general rambling and repeating stuff that I found cool (mostly because I didn't Fullu understand it). So I will write this for myself:

The goal is the edge. The journey is not a burden. The journey is the reward. Embrace the journey. "The feeling for it" will come with repetition. The repetition only makes sense after having a full understanding of events taking place. Each blade is Unique. Find it, understand it, find out what it needs, then give it what it needs. Test, prove, progress. Perfection takes time, patience and determination.

I should learn it by heart...

I should put that on a plaque at the honing station. Or maybe at the foot of the basement stairs to keep me from running up to the den for a premature shave test.

BTW, I think starting restoration honing with a full set of lapping films showed me the value of small jumps in grit, in that with small jumps I got to feel the blade improve and top out more frequently. Plus films do not like pressure.