Let's be fair. There's any number of examples of atricities, torture, genocide, etc. that can be attributed to deists in general and specifically christians. There's nothing inherent to communism or china that makes people particularly cruel. If anything it's a persistent part of the human condition and has nothing to do with politics. We all like to look around and ascribe blame and horrifying events to systems, people, cultures we understand the least. But if we look hard enough we can usually find similar examples perpetrated by people with largely the same beliefs we have and who look just like us. Plenty of monsters who ascribe to democracy and christianity. Plenty of saints in China. We're not all that different. Atheism (not that there aren't millions upon millions of christians, muslims, buddhists, taoists, etc. in China) really doesn't have anything to do with it. I'm an agnostic and I won't even use a mousetrap in my house. Besides, state views on religion don't really have much to do with the thoughts of the populace on spirituality. Communism didn't remove belief in god from millions of russians, it merely made it harder to practice openly. Same thing in China.
They shoot badgers don't they?
- Thread starter Philbo
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IMHO Religion or lack thereof does not have anything to do with it, so much as a values system in which an individual has no value at all other than as part of the larger "system" if you will. When the idea that people are no different than so much hay to be mowed down as needed, or certain children are deemed worthy and others are not, it is hard to imagine people as a general rule appreciating life in the fashion people of different backgrounds do. This is not an argument for or against atheism, so I tend to think the comments are getting overly defensive in that regard. The commentary is about the Chinese government and the way society has changed there, which is simply not deniable. If you are an atheist, good for you, that's your right. The simple fact is that isn't what my post nor this discussion is about, please don't read such into it. For that matter, you don't even know if I am religious or if I am an atheist or agnostic, nor my opinions or views on such. But Chairman Mao's red brigades annihilated MILLIONS on his rise to power, for good or for bad? I guess depends on whose side of the equation you fall, but to try believing the Chinese communist government values human (or any) life is laughable IMHO. As for atheistic or not atheistic, just because perhaps YOU don't see human life as valueless, doesn't mean that isn't what is instituted in China or some other place. Logic would imply that when people are indoctrinated to believe there is nothing else (regardless if there is or is not) after this life, nor do they have any value except as needed by the state, and furthermore nor is there any higher power to answer to besides the state, then only the secretly religious will still have such beliefs, others valuing life only based on its usefulness to the same State they serve.
Clear as mud, I'm sure, but the pages of history seem to back my theory with regard to the Chinese under communist rule...
No intent was made to slam your religion, and I apologize if that is what you perceived. The criticism was aimed squarely at the Chinese government and its indoctrination for the last several decades of the Chinese people, with the end result being the apparent state supported devaluation of life itself in their culture as a general rule.
Most tendencies to be "humane" or ethical, today, are deeply rooted in various religious traditions dating back thousands of years. After all if life has no value, and there is no repercussion for one's actions, why should it matter how millions are killed to achieve power, or at the lowly rung, whether a simple animal suffers or not in its final moments.
A topic I'm somewhat opinionated about, sorry for dragging out so long folks, and those of you who originally though I was poking at you, I was not and apologize for any implications you may have felt I made.
John P.
Clear as mud, I'm sure, but the pages of history seem to back my theory with regard to the Chinese under communist rule...
No intent was made to slam your religion, and I apologize if that is what you perceived. The criticism was aimed squarely at the Chinese government and its indoctrination for the last several decades of the Chinese people, with the end result being the apparent state supported devaluation of life itself in their culture as a general rule.
Most tendencies to be "humane" or ethical, today, are deeply rooted in various religious traditions dating back thousands of years. After all if life has no value, and there is no repercussion for one's actions, why should it matter how millions are killed to achieve power, or at the lowly rung, whether a simple animal suffers or not in its final moments.
A topic I'm somewhat opinionated about, sorry for dragging out so long folks, and those of you who originally though I was poking at you, I was not and apologize for any implications you may have felt I made.
John P.
Although I have seen my share of up close and personal animal cruelty exposes, it is interesting to see the humanitarian reacting to waht he percieves to be the 'bad guy' with just as much malice and desregard as the 'victim' was treates with in the first place. It's cyclical.
The best I could hope for is not that thier skin is ripped off in an escalator, or for that escalator to be destroyed, or anything like that. THe best I could hope for is that the 'bad guys' experience a shift and personal transormation that expands thier horizons and enhances thier quality of life and that of anyone around them. I'd encourage others to consider this possible alternative, and observe your own reactions as possibly being connected to the same cycle, but please do not see this as a criticism - it is just a suggestion based on a possibility.
The best I could hope for is not that thier skin is ripped off in an escalator, or for that escalator to be destroyed, or anything like that. THe best I could hope for is that the 'bad guys' experience a shift and personal transormation that expands thier horizons and enhances thier quality of life and that of anyone around them. I'd encourage others to consider this possible alternative, and observe your own reactions as possibly being connected to the same cycle, but please do not see this as a criticism - it is just a suggestion based on a possibility.
@Kyle: I've been thinking about whether or not to post this for a day or so, but after your post I think I've got to.
Those poor animals in the video are only treated badly because the workers are paid extremely poor wages (well, that's no excuse, but anyway...). Why are these workers paid so badly? Because the 14-year old girl next door wants to buy her new fur-coat inexpensively from her pocket money. In the end it's always more or less the "fault" of "our society". I for myself try to not be part of this cycle wherever possible. My next shoes will be bought from a local shoe-maker and not from the department store and with everything I buy I really want to know where it's coming from and under which conditions it was made - if possible I prefer handmade/custom made/local goods. I know, that's now always possible and sometimes we consumers are fooled, but it's the good will that counts.
But well, this thread has really gone a bit off-topic now, sorry for that...
Those poor animals in the video are only treated badly because the workers are paid extremely poor wages (well, that's no excuse, but anyway...). Why are these workers paid so badly? Because the 14-year old girl next door wants to buy her new fur-coat inexpensively from her pocket money. In the end it's always more or less the "fault" of "our society". I for myself try to not be part of this cycle wherever possible. My next shoes will be bought from a local shoe-maker and not from the department store and with everything I buy I really want to know where it's coming from and under which conditions it was made - if possible I prefer handmade/custom made/local goods. I know, that's now always possible and sometimes we consumers are fooled, but it's the good will that counts.
But well, this thread has really gone a bit off-topic now, sorry for that...
I also agree with you in principle, this applies for many many things (I also try to buy things made locally or at least support manufacturers whose practices I support) although I admit sometimes it is nearly impossible to do so (try finding running shoes that fit and aren't made in a sweat shop in Korea or China sometime....not too easy. Even some of the formerly all USA made shoes, such as New Balance...are largely made in Chinese factories.
Your statement also sums up my opinion of not only animal rights, but drugs, human smuggling, as well as quite a few other things.
Take away the huge profitable market, and the problem I think would simply dwindle out of existence.
I could be wrong, of course, it's happened before.
John P.
Your statement also sums up my opinion of not only animal rights, but drugs, human smuggling, as well as quite a few other things.
Take away the huge profitable market, and the problem I think would simply dwindle out of existence.
I could be wrong, of course, it's happened before.
John P.
Thank you for the responses...I believe dark experiences and situations outside are reflections of what lies inside each individual and from this I have learned to nurture a great sense of humility...which provides for a very full and intense life experience but also very consuming.
I really do appreciate your repsponses, and even more I respect your opinions and choices and am grateful that you would share them. I suppose this has gone off topic but that doesn't have to be a bad thing.
"Our society"...I guess it is to blame for the state of mind of each individual. At least it's a great scapegoat, but in the end each individual does what they gotta do to get through. This is why I don't blame or wish pain on the 'perpatrators' - that denies them of the humanity that we are wanting to see so badly. I guess change really does start from within and it's not always easy.
I really do appreciate your repsponses, and even more I respect your opinions and choices and am grateful that you would share them. I suppose this has gone off topic but that doesn't have to be a bad thing.
"Our society"...I guess it is to blame for the state of mind of each individual. At least it's a great scapegoat, but in the end each individual does what they gotta do to get through. This is why I don't blame or wish pain on the 'perpatrators' - that denies them of the humanity that we are wanting to see so badly. I guess change really does start from within
and it's not always easy.
Well, gentlemen, I'm officially boycotting old-school shaving; killing animals to make tons of money....Simpson and Co can go to hell
I agree, I will still continue to wet shave but my SBAD stops with B&B brush...No more badger brushes for me in the future.
If anyone's interested there's a genuine english badger on the road near my house. I'm pretty sure it died quickly judging by the gore dispersal pattern on the road. Then again, I don't think I fancy trying to retrieve the much sought after hairs - it's a bit of a mess. 
China, I'm not their biggest fan it has to be said. I've worked with a lot of chinese folks since my company is in the process of outsourcing my job to China at the moment (its a big US coMpany Making Mobile phones and infrastructure). I know their record on human/animal rights isn't too good, so personally I tend to boycott if it's possible but not 100%. If I have a choice between a shirt made their or locally then I'll buy the local one etc. I don't really have any desire to visit China any more either, I'm sure it would be interesting but so are a lot of places.
I wouldn't buy another Mobile phone Made by that coMpany any More either, since it's essentially a Chinese product now rather US or UK designed/Manufactured.
China, I'm not their biggest fan it has to be said. I've worked with a lot of chinese folks since my company is in the process of outsourcing my job to China at the moment (its a big US coMpany Making Mobile phones and infrastructure). I know their record on human/animal rights isn't too good, so personally I tend to boycott if it's possible but not 100%. If I have a choice between a shirt made their or locally then I'll buy the local one etc. I don't really have any desire to visit China any more either, I'm sure it would be interesting but so are a lot of places.
I wouldn't buy another Mobile phone Made by that coMpany any More either, since it's essentially a Chinese product now rather US or UK designed/Manufactured.
If you are living on 100% synthetic items, please post now. God did not have Adam load the ark with animals because he thought it would be fun and interesting. IMO, it was because mankind needed them to survive. To eat them. Are you a vegetarian? Well, vegetables are living and thriving organisms. Otherwise, they would not GROW! So eating a green bean or carrot is no different than eating a steak! In my 45 years, I've grown tired of folks who complain about the treatment of animals, only to look down on their leather shoes, belts, etc. I'm still looking for someone who is living the "perfect" life of "animal" free use. Are you the one?
Randy
Randy
Bad comparison.
At least, eating meat IS necessary (well, unless u like to be vegetarian) ; it's a circle of life.
Using a shaving brush IS NOT
Bad comparison.
At least, eating meat IS necessary (well, unless u like to be vegetarian) ; it's a circle of life.
Using a shaving brush IS NOT
So explain the difference to me. You have just admitted that there is another option. So why eat meat?
Randy
Well, btwn meat and a shaving brush, which one does your body need the most???
Bad comparison.
At least, eating meat IS necessary (well, unless u like to be vegetarian) ; it's a circle of life.
Using a shaving brush IS NOT
Not trying to turn this into an argument, but you suggested "unless you want to be a vegetarian", which IS an alternative...why eat meat? I don't understand how someone can say "I won't use a badger brush" yet still use products that come from animals for other reasons.
Randy
It's just a peaceful conversation, let's not make this an argument.
My point is that it's easier to justify animal killing for eating rather than for selling shaving brushes ; human beings have been hunting animals to eat forever.
That hadn't been the case for shaving.
Now, from a nutritional standpoint, veg. foods don't contain all essentials amino acids and lack some key minerals ; of course, dairies and eggs have those essentials amino acids, but my brother who tried to be vegetarian is lactose intolerant and his stomach does not really agree with eggs, so he has to eat meat.
But he doesn't need a brush
In life, there is a hierarchy. Humans rule over animals. Yes, humans are animals, but the food chain is in place. I did not create it. You did not create it. In this case, let's agree to disagree. I have no issue in using a brush that is made of animal hair. You do. I respect your opinion. I ask that you respect mine. But based on this, I will ask that you take a look at each and every item you use daily. Where did it come from? Before you judge me, start at your feet and work you way up to your head. Then look at your car. Look at your house. Your newspaper. Your magazines. Anything and everything that you use daily. If you are not 100% synthetic, then where are you?
Randy
Randy
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