Would this get me started?

[Joe Edson]

Well I have been reading info on here for awhile now, trying to get a solid foundation of knowledge before jumping into straights. One thing I won't do is dive head first and start to buy everything like I did with DEs. After a lot of research I settled on a ruprazor filly for my first strop. I'm eventually going to buy a shave ready straight and see how it goes.

My question though is if I decide to hone my own razors should I like straight shaving, will the following hones get me started. I'm actually very interested in restoration and would mainly be looking to pick up razors on the cheap that with a little TLC can become good shavers. I'm not looking to buy anything along these lines till I know if I like straight shaving, but if I do I could definitely see myself dabbing in a little restoration for a hobby.

So would this work for say fixing up eBay specials:

6" DMT double sided coarse/Fine hone (325/600 grit)
plus
Coticule/BBW combo stone

Or will I need something like a DMT 1200 or naniwa 1000 to transition from the DMT fine to a slurried coticule?

My thought was this progression:
DMT 600 for setting the bevel if needed to
slurried coticule for continuing to establish bevel to
slowly adding water to slurry and continuing to hone to
slurried BBW honing to
wet coticule for finishing

 

[professorchaos]

Something of a jump from a 600 grit hone to a slurried Coticule. Not that it can't be done, but given how diamond cuts it could take a good bit of work to bridge the gap.

Frankly, I think a 1.2K DMT is sufficient for all but the worst bevels. Even then, it will do the job - I've used it to hone out nicks pretty quickly.

 

[Joe Edson]

Something of a jump from a 600 grit hone to a slurried Coticule. Not that it can't be done, but given how diamond cuts it could take a good bit of work to bridge the gap.

Frankly, I think a 1.2K DMT is sufficient for all but the worst bevels. Even then, it will do the job - I've used it to hone out nicks pretty quickly.

I guess I was looking at the DMT double sided so that I could use the coarse for a lap, and possibly the 600 if I needed to seriously set a bevel.

Maybe I just need a DMT coarse, a DMT 1.2K or naniwa 1K and a combo coticule?

I'm assuming that if I bought the coticule new I would need to lap it, hence the need for the DMT coarse. I guess if I need the naniwa 1K it would have to be lapped as well.

I've also read that you can establish a bevel with just a slurried coticule - is this not true?

 

[Bart]

I've also read that you can establish a bevel with just a slurried coticule - is this not true?

I depends what you mean with "establish" a bevel.

Let's assume you bought an old restoration project razor on Ebay. The previous owner found it in a drawer where it had been bouncing against empty batteries and keys about which no one remembered on what lock they fitted. Every now an then someone used it to cut some twine. The razor arrives at your place, you spend a few relaxing evenings sanding and polishing, till you're ready to sharpen it. Along the edge are a bunch of barely visible chips missing.
Using a Coticule to establish a bevel on this edge would be an attempt in futility. It would be better to use your DMT-600 or even the 325 for that task.
If you arrive at a clean bevel with 600 grit scratches, a Coticule with slurry has no problems dealing with that.

Lets fast forward to one year later. The same razor turned out to be an excellent shaver. You took pride in your restoration job, and have shaved with it for the rest of the year. You've touched it up numerous times, and now nothing seems to work anymore to keep the edge up to speed. The razor is in need of full sharpening job. The bevel contains missing chips that can only be spotted with a microscope. It is edge deterioration during impact with coarse whiskers, shave after shave. The bevel is convexed a bit, form edge maintenance with a CrO pasted strop during the last months.
Could you establish a flat clean bevel on a Coticule? Yes, you could. It could take you 20 minutes of work, where it would take you 5 minutes on the DMT 600, but then you still need to get past that one's scratch pattern.

Two times you've "established" a bevel, but the amount of work was completely different.

I have a DMT1200, but I haven't used it in a long time. My DMT 325/600 sees regular use.

At any rate, I would hold off any hone purchases till you have gained good confidence in using a straight razor and in stropping. Stropping is very underestimated.
A lot of guys learn to shave reasonable well, and to use the strop without ruining edges (which is only the first step to an efficient stropping routine). At that point, they decide it's time to learn how to sharpen razors, only to find out later that they'd better spend more time with stropping first.

I believe you should be able to get at least 30 shaves out of a straight razor before it needs to touch any hones. When starting out, your razors will dull sooner than that, due to a shaving and honing routine that still needs to be perfected.
When you have learned these skills, it is time to learn how to hone your own razors.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[professorchaos]

I guess I was looking at the DMT double sided so that I could use the coarse for a lap, and possibly the 600 if I needed to seriously set a bevel.

Maybe I just need a DMT coarse, a DMT 1.2K or naniwa 1K and a combo coticule?

I'm assuming that if I bought the coticule new I would need to lap it, hence the need for the DMT coarse. I guess if I need the naniwa 1K it would have to be lapped as well.

I've also read that you can establish a bevel with just a slurried coticule - is this not true?

Apologies, I didn't even consider lapping. I still use the Norton lapping plate I got with a long gone 4K/8K. Since that leaves the surface of the stone a little rougher than I like, I'll do 90% of the work with the Norton and finish with a little DMT mesh in 600 grit. I've noticed it clogs up after a while and becomes less effective.

There are others here who can better speak to the Coticule's virtues, so I'll leave that topic to them. I would, however, echo Bart's sentiment that it might be a good idea to get some experience with straights before spending a bunch on hones. An edge is a very personal thing - what one person may adore, another might be unimpressed with.

But hey, HAD is HAD.

 

[Joe Edson]

Apologies, I didn't even consider lapping. I still use the Norton lapping plate I got with a long gone 4K/8K. Since that leaves the surface of the stone a little rougher than I like, I'll do 90% of the work with the Norton and finish with a little DMT mesh in 600 grit. I've noticed it clogs up after a while and becomes less effective.

There are others here who can better speak to the Coticule's virtues, so I'll leave that topic to them. I would, however, echo Bart's sentiment that it might be a good idea to get some experience with straights before spending a bunch on hones. An edge is a very personal thing - what one person may adore, another might be unimpressed with.

But hey, HAD is HAD.

As I had mentioned in my first post, I don't intend to buy any hones for a long time until I know that I like straight shaving. I'm just trying to plan everything in advance so I don't fall victim to the ADs like I did with DEs. I'm pretty much planning to get my shave ready straight and use my ruprazor filly and possibly pick up a barber hone to last me awhile. Only then will I look into getting hones and restoring razors. Before I even try stropping my razor, I think I'm going to spend a decent amount of time just stropping a butter knife to try and get my technique down so that I'm not too harsh on the strop when I finally try shaving.

Just was posting this out of curiosity and for planning way down the road.

 

[Joe Edson]

I depends what you mean with "establish" a bevel.

Let's assume you bought an old restoration project razor on Ebay. The previous owner found it in a drawer where it had been bouncing against empty batteries and keys about which no one remembered on what lock they fitted. Every now an then someone used it to cut some twine. The razor arrives at your place, you spend a few relaxing evenings sanding and polishing, till you're ready to sharpen it. Along the edge are a bunch of barely visible chips missing.
Using a Coticule to establish a bevel on this edge would be an attempt in futility. It would be better to use your DMT-600 or even the 325 for that task.
If you arrive at a clean bevel with 600 grit scratches, a Coticule with slurry has no problems dealing with that.

Lets fast forward to one year later. The same razor turned out to be an excellent shaver. You took pride in your restoration job, and have shaved with it for the rest of the year. You've touched it up numerous times, and now nothing seems to work anymore to keep the edge up to speed. The razor is in need of full sharpening job. The bevel contains missing chips that can only be spotted with a microscope. It is edge deterioration during impact with coarse whiskers, shave after shave. The bevel is convexed a bit, form edge maintenance with a CrO pasted strop during the last months.
Could you establish a flat clean bevel on a Coticule? Yes, you could. It could take you 20 minutes of work, where it would take you 5 minutes on the DMT 600, but then you still need to get past that one's scratch pattern.

Two times you've "established" a bevel, but the amount of work was completely different.

I have a DMT1200, but I haven't used it in a long time. My DMT 325/600 sees regular use.

At any rate, I would hold off any hone purchases till you have gained good confidence in using a straight razor and in stropping. Stropping is very underestimated.
A lot of guys learn to shave reasonable well, and to use the strop without ruining edges (which is only the first step to an efficient stropping routine). At that point, they decide it's time to learn how to sharpen razors, only to find out later that they'd better spend more time with stropping first.

I believe you should be able to get at least 30 shaves out of a straight razor before it needs to touch any hones. When starting out, your razors will dull sooner than that, due to a shaving and honing routine that still needs to be perfected.
When you have learned these skills, it is time to learn how to hone your own razors.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Thanks for the reply Bart. I've been slowly perusing over you website to get information on coticules. I really think that if I ever go the route of honing and restoring my own razors that I am too intrigued by using something natural like a coticule that offers so much in one stone. Again, I'm definitely not looking to get into this for at least several more months when I know that I'll even like straights, just trying to gather information.

So what you are basically saying is that yes: I can get by with a DMT 325/600 and coticule or combo coticule/bbw and that would be all I need to restore antique finds or ebay specials (aside from the labor of sanding and polishing)?

 

[SliceOfLife]

If you buy a new coti with a slurry stone, you won't need to lap it. If you buy a used coti, you may have to (some are chipped/gouged/etc).

I like to bevel on a DMT 1200, but it isn't necessary. A Slurried coti works, just slower.

If you want to remove chips, I'd recommend a DMT 220, or 120 if you can find one cheap.


I use my 220 a LOT to remove damage. My 1200 is my go to beveler. I rarely bother with the 600 because the 1200 works just fine after the 220. I've also beveled with the coti, but I find the DMT quicker and easier for me.

 

[Bart]

So what you are basically saying is that yes: I can get by with a DMT 325/600 and coticule or combo coticule/bbw and that would be all I need to restore antique finds or ebay specials (aside from the labor of sanding and polishing)?

It is all I ever use on razors.

That said, Ian has a valid point that you could go from DMT 220 to 1200, and start on the Coticule after that. It's just that I love the feel of Coticules so much that jump to that hone at the earliest opportunity.

I also own an ultra coarse DMT120, that I use to lap raw Coticule samples collected at old mining sites. I have never put a razor on that, because I fear it would totally rip the edge apart.

For occasional lapping a DMT-220 or 325 works just fine.
I have used my 325 for creating bevels from literally scratch. Takes about 15 minutes with the proper technique. Double that time for the first time you ever complete such task.

I think it's great to plan a head. That tells me you're approaching your straight razor adventures in a balanced, intelligent manner, which is, imho, a good recipe for success.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[Sparq]

6" DMT double sided coarse/Fine hone (325/600 grit)
plus
Coticule/BBW combo stone

That is my setup (okay I admit I have a few more natural hones but they are luxury to have - not must to have) and it works pretty well for me. Bart already said it all, I have nothing to add.

 

[Joe Edson]

Thanks for all the input gents! I think I know which direction I'm going to be going down the road if I find myself to enjoy straight shaving. Now what about those Jnat stones....