Vitos - still tallow? 1kg only?

[Hornace]

Is Vitos Extra Super still tallow based?
I've read claims that Vitos was moving away from tallow, but only in one thread from maybe 6 years ago. Perhaps someone can offer clarification on the current state of affairs?

Is it still possible to buy an amount smaller than 1kg?
While the kilo is still good value, I wouldn't be able to use up that much in a lifetime and a half, so I'd prefer to sample a smaller amount if possible. I saw posts mentioning Connaught having smaller tubs in stock, but that was again from years ago; can't find anything like that anywhere. I am specifically interested in the non-coco version of the red Extra Super.

 

[Multum in parvo]

Is Vitos Extra Super still tallow based?
I've read claims that Vitos was moving away from tallow, but only in one thread from maybe 6 years ago. Perhaps someone can offer clarification on the current state of affairs?

Is it still possible to buy an amount smaller than 1kg?
While the kilo is still good value, I wouldn't be able to use up that much in a lifetime and a half, so I'd prefer to sample a smaller amount if possible. I saw posts mentioning Connaught having smaller tubs in stock, but that was again from years ago; can't find anything like that anywhere. I am specifically interested in the non-coco version of the red Extra Super.

This is the current formula of the Green 1kg but I believe they changed the base on the others as well - so no tallow anymore.

The green 500ml tube (top one) is the only remaining one that contains tallow but this is a cream not a soft soap like the brick and resembles Proraso Green.

 

[Hornace]

This is the current formula of the Green 1kg but I believe they changed the base on the others as well - so no tallow anymore.

View attachment 1872061

Thanks. Maguire's seems to still have the tallow version, along with tallow Tabac (which they explicitly specify), but it might just be a case of asking them to be sure.

 

[Multum in parvo]

Thanks. Maguire's seems to still have the tallow version, along with tallow Tabac (which they explicitly specify), but it might just be a case of asking them to be sure.

Yes asking ahead would be good. The official product catalog of Susan Darnell shows only the green and red anymore. The Coco seems to be discontinued. If you don’t intend to use everything at once you can cut up the brick and freeze individual chunks so that they don’t go rancid.

 

[GR5233]

The last kilo of Vito’s red I got was the tallow version. So you might still be able to get the tallow version

 

[NorthernSoul]

Is Vitos Extra Super still tallow based?
I've read claims that Vitos was moving away from tallow, but only in one thread from maybe 6 years ago. Perhaps someone can offer clarification on the current state of affairs?

Is it still possible to buy an amount smaller than 1kg?
While the kilo is still good value, I wouldn't be able to use up that much in a lifetime and a half, so I'd prefer to sample a smaller amount if possible. I saw posts mentioning Connaught having smaller tubs in stock, but that was again from years ago; can't find anything like that anywhere. I am specifically interested in the non-coco version of the red Extra Super.

We had a long, long discussion related to this topic back in May. I'll spare you the details and try to summarize. Vitos has a newer product in a 200ml tub that is called the Ancient Recipe that is really tallow based. The VItos shaving soap blocks in kg size are vegetable based soaps. Even if they say "hydrogenated tallow" this is code speak for a vegetable based product aka "vegetable tallow", so don't get misled by the INCI.

The new product is being sold in Italy but is not widely available.

Here is a store page:

Sapone da Barba Antica Ricetta Vitos 200 ml

Soffice Sapone da Barba Antica Ricetta Vitos con Tallo alle mandorle.

www.barbaebaffi.it

Long discussion is here:

This morning I wanted to elaborate to clarify and better understand.
I phoned Susan Darnell and spoke to an operator to ask about this...

 

[BigJ]

This is the current formula of the Green 1kg but I believe they changed the base on the others as well - so no tallow anymore.

View attachment 1872061

The green 500ml tube (top one) is the only remaining one that contains tallow but this is a cream not a soft soap like the brick and resembles Proraso Green.

View attachment 1872063

+1! Sad but true (as far as I know at least)!!

Once I finish the last of my Vito’s that’s it!!

 

[Hornace]

I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. Let me take the sceptical approach for now and raise some points from my own perspective:

Even if they say "hydrogenated tallow" this is code speak for a vegetable based product aka "vegetable tallow"

Simply typing in "hydrogenated tallow" into a search engine and scrolling a while brings up nothing to suggest that it could be anything other than tallow of animal origin. So if it is in fact "code speak", I'd be interested to see some kind of proof.

Thanks. Maguire's seems to still have the tallow version, along with tallow Tabac (which they explicitly specify), but it might just be a case of asking them to be sure.

This supplier has the green version in stock, with the word "tallow" clearly not in the ingredients, but with "cocos nucifera (coconut oil)" instead. The red (Extra Super) version does not mention coconut/cocoate/cocos at all, but lists "hydrogenated tallow". So is it not possible that the red, in this case, is simply old stock with animal tallow base, while the green is the "new" formulation without tallow, but with coconut oil instead? And if that's not the case, then what do you believe is happening here? That they're both exactly the same despite what's written on them, i.e. hydrogenated tallow = coconut oil?

You seem convinced, but all this strikes me as a bit odd, hopefully you can see why.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. Let me take the sceptical approach for now and raise some points from my own perspective:


Simply typing in "hydrogenated tallow" into a search engine and scrolling a while brings up nothing to suggest that it could be anything other than tallow of animal origin. So if it is in fact "code speak", I'd be interested to see some kind of proof.


This supplier has the green version in stock, with the word "tallow" clearly not in the ingredients, but with "cocos nucifera (coconut oil)" instead. The red (Extra Super) version does not mention coconut/cocoate/cocos at all, but lists "hydrogenated tallow". So is it not possible that the red, in this case, is simply old stock with animal tallow base, while the green is the "new" formulation without tallow, but with coconut oil instead? And if that's not the case, then what do you believe is happening here? That they're both exactly the same despite what's written on them, i.e. hydrogenated tallow = coconut oil?

You seem convinced, but all this strikes me as a bit odd, hopefully you can see why.

I was trying to help you. You wanted a Vitos shaving soap with actual tallow that was smaller than a kilogram.

Why don't you read the old thread referenced above and that may shed some light. I have no reason to mislead you.

 

[Hornace]

I was trying to help you. You wanted a Vitos shaving soap with actual tallow that was smaller than a kilogram.

Why don't you read the old thread referenced above and that may shed some light. I have no reason to mislead you.

Okay, fair enough on that "Ancient Recipe" soap recommendation. It's not quite what I'm looking for, since it explicitly lists Potassium Cocoate in its ingredients and is more expensive than I had hoped a sample of the old brick to have been. In any case, I appreciate the heads up.

As for that old thread, all I can see is that Vitos soaps did have a formula change from tallow to coconut oil relatively recently (which appears to back up the theory of the supplier simply having old stock), as well as you making the same claims that you are making now, about "hydrogenated tallow" being vegetable based, which you're still welcome to back up with some kind of sources other than yourself, if you wish.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Okay, fair enough on that "Ancient Recipe" soap recommendation. It's not quite what I'm looking for, since it explicitly lists Potassium Cocoate in its ingredients and is more expensive than I had hoped a sample of the old brick to have been. In any case, I appreciate the heads up.

As for that old thread, all I can see is that Vitos soaps did have a formula change from tallow to coconut oil relatively recently (which appears to back up the theory of the supplier simply having old stock), as well as you making the same claims that you are making now, about "hydrogenated tallow" being vegetable based, which you're still welcome to back up with some kind of sources other than yourself, if you wish.

If you read the thread, you will see that another member, who speaks Italian contacted Susan Darnell (company that makes Vitos) to ask about this. That is the source. I find the whole thing rather tiresome, to be honest. It is not my row to hoe, so good luck.

 

[1e4]

After learning of the reformulation I stocked up with an order from Gifts & Care, where the product listing specifically called out the tallow formulation. I got a few tallow and a few coco, as pictured below. There may be some tallow bricks still floating around somewhere, I guess.

 

[Hornace]

If you read the thread, you will see that another member, who speaks Italian contacted Susan Darnell (company that makes Vitos) to ask about this. That is the source. I find the whole thing rather tiresome, to be honest. It is not my row to hoe, so good luck.

I did read the thread, at least 3 times already, but since you're so insistent, I had to read it once more, just to make sure I'm not going mad.

Subsequently I sent a direct email to Susan Darnell asking for information of the changes, to make explicit whether they have replaced animal tallow with vegetable tallow and it continues to be hydrogenated tallow among the ingredients.

This is what you're referring to, right?

Their response from Susan Darnell:
good evening, in both green and red vitos bread there is vegetable tallow, while in the vitos ancient recipe bowl there is animal tallow
best regards

And this was the answer. The spokesperson is clearly missing the point of the question here and is simply stating that the current Vitos bread loaf formulation is vegetable based, while the Antica Ricetta bowl is tallow based. The use of the phrase "vegetable tallow" (which, as I understand, is a translation from Italian) casually refers to the current formulation, which, as you can see, does not have the word "tallow" in the ingredients. There is no mention of the old formulation in the answer, which was the whole point of the question. So, the question that Susan Darnell got asked, for all intents and purposes, remains unanswered... yet you keep trying to present this as some kind of conclusive proof for your own theory (and I can see how one might find this "rather tiresome").

 

[NorthernSoul]

...So, the question that Susan Darnell got asked, for all intents and purposes, remains unanswered... yet you keep trying to present this as some kind of conclusive proof for your own theory (and I can see how one might find this "rather tiresome").

Here is page 6 from the 2019 Susan Darnell catalog showing the Vitos shaving soaps from 2019.

Translating from the Italian:

"Shaving soap formulated with fats of vegetable origin only."

 

[Hornace]

Here is page 6 from the 2019 Susan Darnell catalog showing the Vitos shaving soaps from 2019.

Translating from the Italian:

"Shaving soap formulated with fats of vegetable origin only."


View attachment 1872269

I am not disputing the fact that Vitos bricks had a formula change. I am simply sceptical of your claim that hydrogenated tallow is "code speak for a vegetable based product".

From 2019:

"For a reason of modern sensibility, we are switching to the use of vegetable origin stearic acid and coconut oil. Our chemists have first tried the properties of these two prime ingredients and have found a total efficacy in both products".

This makes it clear to me that if the soap doesn't have coconut oil listed in the ingredients, it must be the old, pre-2019 formula.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I am not disputing the fact that Vitos bricks had a formula change. I am simply sceptical of your claim that hydrogenated tallow is "code speak for a vegetable based product".

...This makes it clear to me that if the soap doesn't have coconut oil listed in the ingredients, it must be the old, pre-2019 formula.

I can understand being skeptical. However, there are reasons to think the ingredients list is not a reliable indication of whether a Vitos 1 kg block has animal tallow or not.

From the Italian shaving forum, ilrasoio.com, there is an email response from Susan Darnell customer service all the way back in 2020.

Subject: Fwd: Contacts - Susan Darnell
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:38:23 +0200
From: info <[email protected]>

Good morning,

Our kg soap always has the same formula, only that now we use exclusively vegetable-derived oils, whereas previously we used vegetable or animal oils without distinction according to the availability of the raw material suppliers. To adhere to today's particular sensitivity we have decided to use exclusively vegetable-derived oils with the same performance.

Best regards

This response seems to indicate that even prior to the announced change, Vitos 1 kg blocks may have had animal fat, vegetable fat or both. The company seems to say either may be used according to availability and they consider the performance to be equivalent.

In addition, for some years after the change was announced in 2019, Vitos 1 kg blocks continued to be sold using the old ingredient list. Vitos is an industrially produced soap sold to barbershops all over Italy. I don't think it's reasonable to think that years worth of Vitos soap was stockpiled in back rooms and warehouses. At some point, the ingredient list on the packaging was changed, but this does not necessarily correspond to the change to vegetable only ingredients announced in 2019.

This discussion has been going on for years now. In the absence of definitive information, there's only forum posts and emails. It's difficult to be certain.

Subject: Fwd: Contatti - Susan Darnell
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:38:23 +0200
From: info <[email protected]>

buongiorno,

il nostro sapone kg ha sempre la medesima formula solo che adesso usiamo esclusivamente olii di derivazione vegetale, mentre prima usavamo indifferrentemente vegetale o animale secondo le disponibilita dei fornitori di materia prima. per aderire alla particolare sensibilità odierna abbiamo deciso di utilizzare esclusivamente olii di derivazione vegetale avendo le medesime performance.

distinti saluti

 

[Deano]

Havnt had Vitos in quite awhile. I had the red and loved it. Anyone tried the veggie version?

 

[Hornace]

After learning of the reformulation I stocked up with an order from Gifts & Care, where the product listing specifically called out the tallow formulation. I got a few tallow and a few coco, as pictured below. There may be some tallow bricks still floating around somewhere, I guess.

View attachment 1872251

Any noticeable differences between the two?

I can understand being skeptical. However, there are reasons to think the ingredients list is not a reliable indication of whether a Vitos 1 kg block has animal tallow or not.

From the Italian shaving forum, ilrasoio.com, there is an email response from Susan Darnell customer service all the way back in 2020.



This response seems to indicate that even prior to the announced change, Vitos 1 kg blocks may have had animal fat, vegetable fat or both. The company seems to say either may be used according to availability and they consider the performance to be equivalent.

In addition, for some years after the change was announced in 2019, Vitos 1 kg blocks continued to be sold using the old ingredient list. Vitos is an industrially produced soap sold to barbershops all over Italy. I don't think it's reasonable to think that years worth of Vitos soap was stockpiled in back rooms and warehouses. At some point, the ingredient list on the packaging was changed, but this does not necessarily correspond to the change to vegetable only ingredients announced in 2019.

This discussion has been going on for years now. In the absence of definitive information, there's only forum posts and emails. It's difficult to be certain.

Fair enough. Perhaps those who have used the soaps prior, during and after the reformulation, might be able to tell if there have been perceptible changes over the years.

In any case, I ordered a loaf of the Extra Super, so I hope I like it, because it'll be with me for a while...

 

[VerbaVolant]

...vegetable tallow"?
.
.
...vegetable tallow.
I understand that this change is difficult for many enthusiasts to accept.

Impossible for me to accept something I don't understand.
Thanks for posting and for clarification.

 

[Multum in parvo]

Could this be the mysterious source of vegetable tallow?

Triadica sebifera - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The seed's white waxy aril is used in soap making. The seed's inner oil ("stillingia oil") is toxic but has industrial applications.