Swarf removal tool/Stone cleaning tool - other than a lapping plate

[TheBeast]

Hello, I would like to ask those who hone their straight razors:

What do you use to clean the Stone's surface from imbeded swarf other than a lapping plate?

I use my chinese diamond 600 plate, and I plan to get a 400 atome because I noticed it's not very straight. But it's not really practical. If I want to do it lightly, under running water, I have to relocate to the sink. And I like to clean swarf often. So I am looking for a way to clean Up the Stone, without having to use the lapping plate during honing. But I don't really know what works, what should be avoided etc. Please share your tips, what works for you, thanks!

I currently have Naniwa super stones 10mm which really like to load Up and fast. They will be eventually replaced with Shapton Pros, because they are also warping. They hone good, just are a little painful to use and keep straight.

And I would like to use the atoma on the shaptons as little as possible, during honing. So a little something to clean them would be really nice, I just don't know what to look for.

 

[Christian1212]

Any other stone will work, my preferred would be a tomo that covers the width of a stone. Wouldn't worry too much about synthetic stone wear though if you are only honing for yourself. Only stone being worn out would be the bevel setter imo (unless you sharpen knives as well). Could see someone going through the thin naniwa stones but think you will be good with the shapton.

 

[TheBeast]

Any other stone will work, my preferred would be a tomo that covers the width of a stone. Wouldn't worry too much about synthetic stone wear though if you are only honing for yourself. Only stone being worn out would be the bevel setter imo (unless you sharpen knives as well). Could see someone going through the thin naniwa stones but think you will be good with the shapton.

Yeah when I first started out, I lapped and lapped my 1k as I struggled to set a bevel for hours. And so I burned through more than half of a stone in a few weeks. Now when I kind of know what I'm doing, those remaining few mm of stone are holding up. And I struggle to get a decent bevel from it. I set a better bevel on my 150 or 600 diamond stone, even wet/dry sandpaper. The bevel off my 1k naniwa is only decent after some work on the 5k, at which point it can shave and treetop hair.

So I'm hoping the Shapton will make a better bevel setter for me and I should not burn through it even if I lap it frequently, but very lightly to remove swarf.

But the other factor is the comfort, not having to go to the sink, or lap with the stone in the holder with the diamont plate sitting on top and rubbing. Then I need to rinse it anyway to get rid of slurry if I want to make finnishing laps. So I'm looking for something to give it just a quick little rub, then wipe with palm and splash some more water.

And I have absolutely no knowledge regarding natural stones, or where to get them etc. So maybe something that I can buy in a store that carries synthetic whetstones? I think I read someone uses a dish sponge. So maybe a little "lifehack" like that as well.

 

[TheBeast]

I have a Naniwa 12k ss broken in halfs, so maybe I could use the shorter one just for this, if any other Stone could work. And I dont have to worry about cross contaminating the stones with lower grit. At the worst, they will cut a tiny bit slower.

 

[Ravenonrock]

I use wet/dry sandpaper 800 grit, full sheet on a flat 2x2ft marble tile. It’s all I’ve been using to lap my Naniwa Specialty Stones. A spray bottle and and a wide baking sheet to catch whatever comes off the stones. A tidy little setup that has been working for several years now. I use separate sheets for each stone. I have replaced my worn 1k with a Shapton Glass 1k, things are working out just fine.

 

[JPO]

Naniwa has a dedicated dressing stone for this purpose. It is a soaking stone. You can also use a rust eraser.

 

[Gamma]

l clear swarf under running water with my fingers. Need the water to carry the particulate away. If I am at my bench I will use a spray bottle to emulate running water. if the swarf is deeply embedded, I use a worn 400x plate to open the surface back up. Been doing it this way for over a decade without issue. A lapping plate is key for effectively clearing embedded swarf. Another stone isn't really going to do that great of a job unless its surface has enough tooth to dig in.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

I use an Atoma 600 and running water or a no name 400 diamond plate.

Lately I have been using a natural Nagura on my Snow White and 10 Suehiro. I started using the fine synthetic nagura that came with my 10k to try to get a smoother finish, I think it is 3k, and noticed that it removed swarf quickly and efficiently without removing much stone face.

So, I tried natura Tomo Nagura that I have lots of, they all work but a piece of Kita seems to work fastest. You could use with just a wet stone and wipe the slurry with a paper towel and or microfiber without going to the sink. I have a sink in my shop, just steps from my bench. I keep a paper towel and microfiber at the honing bench when honing, the paper towel keeps the microfiber cleaner longer.

Cut a 2-inch chunk from your 12k and make it a nagura, cuts easily with a hacksaw. The Nanawia 12k has a lot of range and would make an interesting Nagura for a lot of synthetic stones.

Your bevel setting problems do not sound like a stone issue.

If you are setting a bevel with a Diamond plate, you are cutting some deep stria into the steel, which will make a lot of work for the 1k. Try a $20 King, I did on a dare, bought for $2 at a flea market and now have an 800, 1k and 1.2k. I use my big 800 most bevel setting. From 800 I go to 6, 8 or 10k, easy near mirror bevels from the 8 or 10k, then finish on natural.

 

[DrStrange]

I use the green pad on the side of a kitchen sponge
under running water to clean swarf from hones.

The best way to clean swarf from ceramic rods,
commonly used dry to sharpen kitchen knives,
is with a dry rubber eraser.

 

[TheBeast]

Thanks everyone for chipping in. Here's what I came up with:

As I use a PET bottle with a pin hole in the cap to water my stones on my table, I will use a bowl or something to dip my fingers in, rub the stone and rinse the swarf away.

Then I can give it a rub with the broken piece of the Naniwa 12k, which I will shape a little, chamfer the edges more...

And I will upgrade my diamond plate to the 600 Atoma, break it in by sharpening some of my utility/outdoor knives.

I have been using a 150/600 diamond stone from (presumably) a Japanese manufacturer "SK11". I noticed that it behaves a little odd when lapping (always removing grid from the center first, which I thought was the other way around as it should be, because the center of the stone is where I hone the most, and thus should be convex the most, thus should get into contact with a straight surface last, after the corners). I have been using wet/dry on a mirror finnish tile before that. So I put the diamond plate against some glass surfaces around the apartment (glass coffe table, induction stove, mirror, my 20mm acrylic used as a substrate for balsa strop) and there it was - a noticable warp, enough to see light through the gap when looking against a window/when flipped, the edges were raised by around a milimeter. So that might explain why I had more luck setting a bevel on wet/dry than on my 1k stone. Maybe when lapping with the the 150 side I had a concave stone surface (on my 1k), when using the 600 side I had a convex surface. And on higher stones the bevel got shaped into a convex one, thus refining it and making it shave. I could try and re-lap the stones on the glass coffe table and some wet/dry. Hopefully the Atoma will be straighter.

 

[Steve56]

These work great

Amazon.com

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“I have been using a 150/600 diamond stone from (presumably) a Japanese manufacturer "SK11". I noticed that it behaves a little odd when lapping (always removing grid from the center first, which I thought was the other way around as it should be, because the center of the stone is where I hone the most, and thus should be convex the most, thus should get into contact with a straight surface last, after the corners). I have been using wet/dry on a mirror finnish tile before that.”

You are way overthinking stone flatness. If the diamond plate was slightly concave, the only way you could make the stone match the plate is to hone with the plate across the short axis. If you hone on the long axis the low parts of the plate will evenly remove material from end to end, across the stone evenly.

Flatness of the stone, (a few thousandths) does not effect the ability of the stone to cut and set a bevel. Only the width of the bevel and the spine are making contact, a millimeter or so is touching the stone. Worst case, on a convex stone, your bevel would be slightly concave, by microns.

Chances are your stone was not fully lapped flat. If you cannot remove a pencil grid in less than 10 laps, the stone is not flat. Slurry will wash off a pencil grid long before it is flat.

Most folks especially new honers use more pressure on the edges of a stone and wear the edges faster than the middle. Especially with Superstones, where swarf build up will prevent the steel from contacting the stone face fully, if not removed regularly.

BTW, glass is not flat, but can be flattened easily with a sheet of 220 Wet & Dry.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

You know, it's trivially easy to check a surface for flatness with a decent straightedge. I'm not talking molecular levels of dead-flat. Just practical levels. A pencil grid will show you where the high and low spots are but every time I've gotten a stone "pencil grid flat" the straightedge reveals that it's not quite there. Doesn't take much more lapping, usually, but it does take a little more and it does seem like the results are better, honing-wise. At least to me.

 

[TheBeast]

“I have been using a 150/600 diamond stone from (presumably) a Japanese manufacturer "SK11". I noticed that it behaves a little odd when lapping (always removing grid from the center first, which I thought was the other way around as it should be, because the center of the stone is where I hone the most, and thus should be convex the most, thus should get into contact with a straight surface last, after the corners). I have been using wet/dry on a mirror finnish tile before that.”

You are way overthinking stone flatness. If the diamond plate was slightly concave, the only way you could make the stone match the plate is to hone with the plate across the short axis. If you hone on the long axis the low parts of the plate will evenly remove material from end to end, across the stone evenly.

Flatness of the stone, (a few thousandths) does not effect the ability of the stone to cut and set a bevel. Only the width of the bevel and the spine are making contact, a millimeter or so is touching the stone. Worst case, on a convex stone, your bevel would be slightly concave, by microns.

Chances are your stone was not fully lapped flat. If you cannot remove a pencil grid in less than 10 laps, the stone is not flat. Slurry will wash off a pencil grid long before it is flat.

Most folks especially new honers use more pressure on the edges of a stone and wear the edges faster than the middle. Especially with Superstones, where swarf build up will prevent the steel from contacting the stone face fully, if not removed regularly.

BTW, glass is not flat, but can be flattened easily with a sheet of 220 Wet & Dry.

I lap with the plate in one Hand, Stone in the other, in the sink under running water. Sort of like washing my hands, rubbing the two along the longer Axis, with a very slight circular motion as Well.

From time to time, I do the pencil Grid test. And almost Every time it is gone with about 5 laps. Mostly I look at how the swarf is removed when lapping. If I notice that it is not removed evenly, I lap a little more and use the pencil Grid test.

My 1k superstone is now reduced by a little more than a half of it's width. (Yes it's extreme, it is my fault for lapping way too much and way too long and way too hard when I started out.)

If glass is not flot then my best bet would be to keep using the Diamond plate, even when I think I Can make out a concave bend in it with just the naked eye.

I'll try to even out the Pressure and lighten it Up on my next bevel set with more frequent light lapping.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

If you are setting a bevel on a 1k after cutting a bevel with a Diamond plate, the diamonds will cut deep stria, that will make a lot of work for the 1k to remove all that deep stria and make the edges come together.

Jointing the edge straight will quickly cut away a lot of the ragged edge caused by an aggressive Diamond plate. If you look straight down on the edge you will see a lot of shiny reflections, where the bevels are not meeting, from deep diamond stria.

After jointing the edge look straight down on the edge. Now most of the edge will reflect light, (it is flat) and the dark spots are where the diamonds have cut deep stria that was not removed by a jointing stroke. Keep jointing until the dark spots are removed, now bring the bevels back to meeting.

It is often easier to joint and reset the bevels a few times, rather than hog off a lot of the edge and cut new bevels. Either way you must cut a new bevel, remove all the steel on the bevel to the level of the bottom of the lowest chip/diamond stria. Until you do that the edge will be chippy and shave harshly.

Of course, you can just hone away enough of the bevel to remove all the deep stria, but most new honers do not have the patience for that, and damage to the steel can be a bit deeper than the bottom of the stria/pit, especially on some softer steels.

If I do need to use a diamond plate to reshape a damaged edge, I will start to set the bevels on a diamond plate, but not bring the bevels to meeting fully, close but not fully. I then switch to an 800 or 1k stone to bring the bevels to meeting fully. Even then I will lightly joint the edge and bring back to meeting a couple times with light laps.

It will make the rest of the honing process much easier because you are ensured of cutting a new bevel on solid steel.

 

[TheBeast]

If you are setting a bevel on a 1k after cutting a bevel with a Diamond plate, the diamonds will cut deep stria, that will make a lot of work for the 1k to remove all that deep stria and make the edges come together.

Jointing the edge straight will quickly cut away a lot of the ragged edge caused by an aggressive Diamond plate. If you look straight down on the edge you will see a lot of shiny reflections, where the bevels are not meeting, from deep diamond stria.

After jointing the edge look straight down on the edge. Now most of the edge will reflect light, (it is flat) and the dark spots are where the diamonds have cut deep stria that was not removed by a jointing stroke. Keep jointing until the dark spots are removed, now bring the bevels back to meeting.

It is often easier to joint and reset the bevels a few times, rather than hog off a lot of the edge and cut new bevels. Either way you must cut a new bevel, remove all the steel on the bevel to the level of the bottom of the lowest chip/diamond stria. Until you do that the edge will be chippy and shave harshly.

Of course, you can just hone away enough of the bevel to remove all the deep stria, but most new honers do not have the patience for that, and damage to the steel can be a bit deeper than the bottom of the stria/pit, especially on some softer steels.

If I do need to use a diamond plate to reshape a damaged edge, I will start to set the bevels on a diamond plate, but not bring the bevels to meeting fully, close but not fully. I then switch to an 800 or 1k stone to bring the bevels to meeting fully. Even then I will lightly joint the edge and bring back to meeting a couple times with light laps.

It will make the rest of the honing process much easier because you are ensured of cutting a new bevel on solid steel.

I don't use anything except my 1k SS to set a bevel now. The Diamond plate is used to lap the Stone only.

I did try using Diamond plate or set/dry once and while I did get a cutting edge, the scratches were very hard to get rid of on the 1k. And then the edge stopped cutting on 1k.

So when setting a bevel on my 1k, no matter how long I keep going, I always see some reflection when looking straight Down on the edge. When using slurry and some Pressure on the stone, it May poorly cut Arm hair with Pressure on the skin. When using light laps on water, it will not cut any hair. But after about two sets of slurry circles (2x20) and some light water x strokes on the 5K, the edge is there almost perfect, no reflections, cuts nicely, even treetops hair. Such an edge finnished off 12k SS will shave quite nice. I prefer to go to 0.5um pasted balsa, thats an even better shave for me. HHT is a still not a perfect quite slicer, more of a pop. The bevels are almost perfectly polished to a Mirror. Edge Has absolutely no reflection when looking straight Down, with a loupe or a scope.

0.5 um finnish (after not being able to get a cutting edge on 1k but getting a good bevel on the 5k, then polish on 8k, then balsa)

 

[Gamma]

@sexy beast - You're not overthinking anything, but someone else here might be.

You may have under-thought a few things though.

If a stone is 'out of flat' - hand holding during lapping can and probably will exacerbate the issue. Your hands will be more inclined to rock the stone more than force it to sit flat.

A straightedge is the best tool for gauging flatness. that will allow you to check flatness across 8 axes, correctly and accurately. Holding a stone up to a window is not a good method. The thin edge of a proper straight edge is a key element in the measuring process.

Grids wear fast, slurry takes them off. The 1k SS is very soft so the grids will lift quickly. If the stone is convex in any way, and you lap hand held, the plate or stone or both will rock and take off the grid edge to edge. Some Super Stones are prone to warping too, so you can get it flat today and it might not be flat tomorrow.

I can't see your stone or check it so I can't tell if it is in or out of flat or by how much. Neither can anyone else here.
But when someone says their stone is flat I assume it isn't and if they say its a 'little out' I assume it looks like a mogul run. I don't remember the last stone that someone sent me as 'flat' that was actually flat.

If a stone shows flat in the center long ways but the short dimension (width) is convex - it can 'look' flat when gauged with a wide flat surface like a window. But it won't actually be flat. And if that curve is off enough it will most definitely interfere with bevel setting.

With a straight edge, and a dry stone, check both edges and the center lengthwise. Check both short edges and again across the middle width. Then check both diagonals.
When those lines show flat - the stone is flat. Getting this done is not hard, btw.
But we have to use the right tools the right way to get there.

Quality honing relies on consistency in all areas.
Removing variables is part of that consistency.

I keep my stones flat. I lap all the time. More than most people actually.
I check and prove all surfaces with a straight edge. It works.

 

[TheBeast]

@sexy beast - You're not overthinking anything, but someone else here might be.

You may have under-thought a few things though.

If a stone is 'out of flat' - hand holding during lapping can and probably will exacerbate the issue. Your hands will be more inclined to rock the stone more than force it to sit flat.

A straightedge is the best tool for gauging flatness. that will allow you to check flatness across 8 axes, correctly and accurately. Holding a stone up to a window is not a good method. The thin edge of a proper straight edge is a key element in the measuring process.

Grids wear fast, slurry takes them off. The 1k SS is very soft so the grids will lift quickly. If the stone is convex in any way, and you lap hand held, the plate or stone or both will rock and take off the grid edge to edge. Some Super Stones are prone to warping too, so you can get it flat today and it might not be flat tomorrow.

I can't see your stone or check it so I can't tell if it is in or out of flat or by how much. Neither can anyone else here.
But when someone says their stone is flat I assume it isn't and if they say its a 'little out' I assume it looks like a mogul run. I don't remember the last stone that someone sent me as 'flat' that was actually flat.

If a stone shows flat in the center long ways but the short dimension (width) is convex - it can 'look' flat when gauged with a wide flat surface like a window. But it won't actually be flat. And if that curve is off enough it will most definitely interfere with bevel setting.

With a straight edge, and a dry stone, check both edges and the center lengthwise. Check both short edges and again across the middle width. Then check both diagonals.
When those lines show flat - the stone is flat. Getting this done is not hard, btw.
But we have to use the right tools the right way to get there.

Quality honing relies on consistency in all areas.
Removing variables is part of that consistency.

I keep my stones flat. I lap all the time. More than most people actually.
I check and prove all surfaces with a straight edge. It works.

I will get myself a straightedge to remove All the guesswork and not rely on acrylic or glass etc. I don't have any marble nor granit.

So I will check the stones properly Once I get it. Just to clarify - a straightedge is a steel tool I Can get at a hardware shop thats supposed to be straight to a certain tolerance? English isnt my first language...

Warping - yes. My superstones warp, the 3k is Beyond saving. 8k warped but I "straightened it" by eye and it lapped until consistently removing All pencil grid in around 5 laps. But still, god knows what happens with it overnight.


Do you recommend having the Stone in the Holder on the table and lapping with the plate on top? Rather than laping hand held. I do that when removing swarf lightly sometimes.

I like to (over)think and I like to get things the proper, prove-able, measurable way.

 

[TheBeast]

Also what I noticed - when having a Stone laped to what I think is as flat as I Can get it. I will Press it flat surface to flat surface with a 20mm thick acrylic plate (substrate for my balsa strop). When I consider the Stone flat, it will put a little resistance to being predssed to the acrylic and create a bit of suction which is felt when pulling it back.

Also at that Point the Diamond plate Sticks to the Stone while lapping. But that just means the plates face is translated into the stones face. And the plate must be straight in order to get a straight / flat Stone. And I dont think míne is. But I will measure with the straightedge.

 

[JPO]

Also at that Point the Diamond plate Sticks to the Stone while lapping. But that just means the plates face is translated into the stones face

You can get this effect before anything is flat if you are using a lapping plate that is too fine.
What grit is your lapping plate?

If I use my dmt 1200 it will just stick to the stone. The atome 1200 is a little better, but my preferred plate is 400/600. These will not stick to the stone as much. If I need to dress the surface finer I use a nagura or sandpaper.