What would you guys recommend for straightening a set of warped scales that have already been unpinned? The razor in question is a Dubl Duck Goldedge and I would like to save the scales but they suffer from warp that’s common with these.
Straighten Scales (Unpinned)
- Thread starter drewmac
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I would replace them, I'm doing that on one of my 3/8 Dubl Duck razors.
Point is that the scales are nitrocelluose, and warping is the first sign of decomposition, which releases nitric acid and will ruin the blade.
If you really want to save them, you could try gentle heat and flatten them, but remember they are very, very flammable -- cellulose nitrate (aka guncotton) is used as propellant in big ship guns.
Point is that the scales are nitrocelluose, and warping is the first sign of decomposition, which releases nitric acid and will ruin the blade.
If you really want to save them, you could try gentle heat and flatten them, but remember they are very, very flammable -- cellulose nitrate (aka guncotton) is used as propellant in big ship guns.
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- #3
Do you happen to know anyone who would replace the scales AND the inlays? I could do a basic scale replacement myself but I’m rather attached to the inlays on these cracked ice scales.
I do not, and I'd personally hate to lose those inlays, but cell rot is going to ruin the razor, and any other razors stored with it AND trigger cell rot in any other nitrocellulose scales close by. You can keep the scales if you want, but store them far far from razors or other cellulose nitrate scales.
I you were a much better artist than I, you might be able to fit the inlays to some new plastic scales, which will NOT be nitrocelluose.
I you were a much better artist than I, you might be able to fit the inlays to some new plastic scales, which will NOT be nitrocelluose.
Get the Mrs's iron out, or your heat gun, and work out a way to warm them up and flatten, like on a warm brick.
It's "Celluloid" it's not going to blow up, it may go gloopy or catch fire like any other plastic, there were million other things made from it, a k a dolls and kids played with them. The sky is not falling, chikin little.
I know it's not the same, I thought had enough nitroglycerin in me to lob an artillery shell on Hawaii, but in reality after eight straight hours being dosed ever half hour I didn't have enough to even blow me nose.
It's "Celluloid" it's not going to blow up, it may go gloopy or catch fire like any other plastic, there were million other things made from it, a k a dolls and kids played with them. The sky is not falling, chikin little.
I know it's not the same, I thought had enough nitroglycerin in me to lob an artillery shell on Hawaii, but in reality after eight straight hours being dosed ever half hour I didn't have enough to even blow me nose.
Do not use a heat gun or iron. They will heat to a point then they instantly cook. They will heat up and be fine, then instantly start to bubble and combust without warning. Use hot water to heat and bend to shape and clamp, I use a large woodworking vise; it may take repeated heating and bending cycles.
But as said if they are warped, it is a good indicator that they are in the early stage of Cell Rot and are time bombs. Double Duck cracked ice scales are second worst to Duck translucent scales for Cell Rot. Probably why Double Duck are so rare. If there is any fine rust on the blade, remove the scales and save the blade. Ducks are excellent shavers.
Should keep them do not store with other razors.
Old Bolsters can be removed by clipping off the ends and soaking in Acetone. As soon as the celluloid melts remove the bolsters with a pair of tweezers, only takes a few seconds. The bolsters are very thin and bend easily, use a pair of tweezers to remove from the melted Celluloid glue.
Properly inlaying the bolsters to a new pair of scales is a lot of work. You can super glue them to a pair of new scales and they do not look too bad, the hard part is making replacement scales the exact shape of the originals, so the bolsters fit perfectly, and not bending the super thin bolsters.
Here is a photo of some excellent Double Duck restorations by 10 Pups on another forum. He glued the bolsters and inlays to new translucent scales. I have seen these razors in person, and they are pristine.
But as said if they are warped, it is a good indicator that they are in the early stage of Cell Rot and are time bombs. Double Duck cracked ice scales are second worst to Duck translucent scales for Cell Rot. Probably why Double Duck are so rare. If there is any fine rust on the blade, remove the scales and save the blade. Ducks are excellent shavers.
Should keep them do not store with other razors.
Old Bolsters can be removed by clipping off the ends and soaking in Acetone. As soon as the celluloid melts remove the bolsters with a pair of tweezers, only takes a few seconds. The bolsters are very thin and bend easily, use a pair of tweezers to remove from the melted Celluloid glue.
Properly inlaying the bolsters to a new pair of scales is a lot of work. You can super glue them to a pair of new scales and they do not look too bad, the hard part is making replacement scales the exact shape of the originals, so the bolsters fit perfectly, and not bending the super thin bolsters.
Here is a photo of some excellent Double Duck restorations by 10 Pups on another forum. He glued the bolsters and inlays to new translucent scales. I have seen these razors in person, and they are pristine.
Nitroglycerine used as a medication and nitrocellulose razor scales are not similar.
Nitrocellulose is now only found in traditional lacquer, any other use for it stopped decades ago, even movie film hasn't been nitrate base since the 1960s. Too dangerous. Modern scales are usually acrylic if clear or opalescent, but there are other materials as well. None burn like nitrocelluose!
Nitrocellulose is self oxidizing, and once ignited is very difficult to extinguish since it does not require atmospheric oxygen to burn.
Nitrocellulose is now only found in traditional lacquer, any other use for it stopped decades ago, even movie film hasn't been nitrate base since the 1960s. Too dangerous. Modern scales are usually acrylic if clear or opalescent, but there are other materials as well. None burn like nitrocelluose!
Nitrocellulose is self oxidizing, and once ignited is very difficult to extinguish since it does not require atmospheric oxygen to burn.
so neither will blow up? thats good to know.
If you sand down celluloid, the dust will make a nice *poof* when you touch a flame to it.
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- #10
I think I am going to make the attempt to fit the bolsters to a new set of scales. I think this color kirinite, while not cracked ice is a nice color/style analogue to the old cellulose ones.
If I were to do it again, I would make a casting of the scale end with the bolster on it. The problem is, you will melt/destroy the scale to remove the bolster, so you will not have anything to use as a buck or to take measurements from for final fitting. Templates made from the original scales with the bolsters will be close but not the same size because of the thickness of the bolsters, so you will need to do a lot of detailed fitting to get them to fit perfectly.
The compound curve at the end can make you nuts, the bolsters are so thin that you can easily deform or break them and then really play hell trying to fit the scales to the bolsters. The bolsters must fit the scales perfectly and you must do it twice on both sides, so you need a pair of bucks.
Then make a series of cardboard templates off the casting, once properly sized, using the casting as a buck in to make the templates. Look at making a wire form buck when making a fender, that is an interior buck, you need an exterior template to make the scales.
I would use soft copper wire or plumbing solder to make the exterior wire buck and trace onto cardboard posterboard.
Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Workshop has some good video on making wire bucks, theory and process and making compound curves in metal.
It is a bit of work and will require thought and planning before you destroy the original scales. Post your work, it should be interesting. Would love to see your process. Good Luck.
The compound curve at the end can make you nuts, the bolsters are so thin that you can easily deform or break them and then really play hell trying to fit the scales to the bolsters. The bolsters must fit the scales perfectly and you must do it twice on both sides, so you need a pair of bucks.
Then make a series of cardboard templates off the casting, once properly sized, using the casting as a buck in to make the templates. Look at making a wire form buck when making a fender, that is an interior buck, you need an exterior template to make the scales.
I would use soft copper wire or plumbing solder to make the exterior wire buck and trace onto cardboard posterboard.
Wray Schelin's Pro Shaper Workshop has some good video on making wire bucks, theory and process and making compound curves in metal.
It is a bit of work and will require thought and planning before you destroy the original scales. Post your work, it should be interesting. Would love to see your process. Good Luck.
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- #12
Will do. I already pulled my special move when restoring things and didn't take any before pictures prior to unpinning.
I Have gotten those Dubl Duck scales perfectly straight many times, once you unpin them, place a solid piece of metal of the correct thickness between the scales, then fill a Pyrex jug full of boiling water, now while squeezing the pivot end between your finger and thumb with a metal piece in between the scales, dip the submerge the scales for about 30 seconds pull them out try to lightly manipulate the warp or bend by squeezing very lightly, keep repeating this until you succeed.
Just had mine done by Doc, in that color. Bad pic doesn't capture the depth or beauty of the scales.
I had straightened some scales that were collapsed in the center. I put the scales in hot water for a short time, removed them from the water, and inserted a q-tip between the scales (the paper stick) until the scales cooled, and so far they've stayed open.
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I've never seen scientific documentation proving that warped scales indicates the onset of cell rot.
Have seen plenty of cell rot without warping.
Have seen way more celluloid scales warped without cell rot.
Not all celluloid goes 'south'. So warping could indicate something, or nothing.
Any polymer, and many other substances, can melt, burn, possibly ignite if powdered. Heck, flour can combust in air under the right conditions. Celluloid though, is not going to explode.
For sure I have seen a good number of cell rot blades, most were Solingen and some of them were DD. I have seen way more DD blades without cell rot than with it though.
If I didn't see any signs of cell rot, I would not assume much.
I would and do use a hair dryer or heat gun to un-warp plastic scales.
Yes, it is ok to use heat here. It works well. I have done in many many times without issue. Yes, you can melt stuff with a heat gun, that's one of its basic uses actually. So paying attention is key; low heat, short passes over the length of the area to 'fix'. The idea is to soften the material, not liquify it. Gently heat, built up slowly.
I just did this last week for a Swede FB I am trying to salvage. First I fixed the scales unpinned then after pinning I used heat and a dowel to mold the shape further. Worked fine.
The wedge has to be in good condition, and pinned well for this to play out well. So with the FB I mentioned, I sanded the wedge perfectly flat first, and cleaned up the scales in that area so I could have good contact.
Have seen plenty of cell rot without warping.
Have seen way more celluloid scales warped without cell rot.
Not all celluloid goes 'south'. So warping could indicate something, or nothing.
Any polymer, and many other substances, can melt, burn, possibly ignite if powdered. Heck, flour can combust in air under the right conditions. Celluloid though, is not going to explode.
For sure I have seen a good number of cell rot blades, most were Solingen and some of them were DD. I have seen way more DD blades without cell rot than with it though.
If I didn't see any signs of cell rot, I would not assume much.
I would and do use a hair dryer or heat gun to un-warp plastic scales.
Yes, it is ok to use heat here. It works well. I have done in many many times without issue. Yes, you can melt stuff with a heat gun, that's one of its basic uses actually. So paying attention is key; low heat, short passes over the length of the area to 'fix'. The idea is to soften the material, not liquify it. Gently heat, built up slowly.
I just did this last week for a Swede FB I am trying to salvage. First I fixed the scales unpinned then after pinning I used heat and a dowel to mold the shape further. Worked fine.
The wedge has to be in good condition, and pinned well for this to play out well. So with the FB I mentioned, I sanded the wedge perfectly flat first, and cleaned up the scales in that area so I could have good contact.
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