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Spyderco ceramic stones - approx. grit size

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cityjim

Take notice of the approximate grit size on Spyderco stones .

Ultra Fine is 2,000
Fine is 1,800
Medium is 600



This directly from Spyderco .


" Our Sharpening stones are made of high alumina ceramic. There is not actual "grit" rating for these style of stones because a grit refers to the size of the abrasive particles in a sandpaper. A approximate "grit" for the Spyderco High Alumina Ultra Fine Ceramic is 2,000 , Fine is 1,800 and Medium is 600 . Thank you for your question.

Spyderco Factory Outlet
820 Spyderco Way
Golden, Colorado 80403

Phone: 800-828-1925 x 4

Fax: 303-278-2057
www.Spyderco.com
www.BaliYo.com " END QUOTE


cityjim
 
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mparker762

The actual size of the particles in a hone doesn't actually mean as much as one might expect. The garnets in a coticule are around 15 microns, which I think works out to about 2k grit, yet it produces an edge that is comparable to that produced by 1 micron diamond abrasive paste.

Despite the large particle size in the spyderco uf, it works extremely well. Some of this may be due to the characteristics of the ceramic binder as well. Unlapped, it's comparable to a Coticule and possibly a tad better. When lapped and polished it performs nearly as well as the Shapton 30k hone.
 
LessLemming

LessLemming

You must be kidding me? Nobody claimed that there is something important missing in that Spyderco statement?
How about wich grit system they are referring to?!

Our Sharpening stones are made of high alumina ceramic. There is not actual "grit" rating for these style of stones because a grit refers to the size of the abrasive particles in a sandpaper. A approximate "grit" for the Spyderco High Alumina Ultra Fine Ceramic is 2,500 , Fine is 1,200 and Medium is 600 . Thank you for your question.
Click to expand...

2,500 in the standart japanese JIS grit system that is used bye Naniwa for example
would be an outrage for such a fine fellar.
Yes it is true the garnets in a blue belgium are bigger than one would expect
but this is because these garnets have literally no edges that would abrade the steel
but these garnets flatten the bevel out.
The Spyderco UF is made of Alumoxyde which is abrassive and has
extremely sharp and hard edges.
So this argument can not be made.

Here is a guide comparing the different grit systems.
It is not complete (the very important Mesh system is missing) nor is it 100% correct.
But for comparson sake it´s allright.
http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/G10019.htm

I think we all agree 2,500 in the JIS grit system
wich would be 8-6 microns would be rather unlikely
for a hone that finishes like a 20.000 hone, to say the least.

If we have a look at the FEPA grit system that is common in europe,
we could get close. FEPA 2.500 would in this case be around JIS 10.000
With aprox 1µm.

Considering the fact that the Spydercos are extremely hard bond,
it could be that if the Stone is lapped by another very fine
and very hard stone (ie rubb together two Spydercos)
the edges of the Alum could be abraded itself
thereby refining to an even higher grit.

Last but not least,
Spyderco is right about the "grit" thing.
Grit sizes and Meshes refer to sharpening particels that are completely free to move (ie pastes)
or that are bond losely and will dissolve in a slurry when sharpening.
In this case you have one single grit that can be isolated and measured.

The Spyderco hones do not have this, I think. Sharpening on them is more a surface action.
So if the surface of the spyderco changes you get a different grit size.
So maybe we could use a "peak-to-valley height " or roughness of surface of the stone rather than grit sizes
 
E

English

I don't understand what you are saying.

The particles on the spyderco may be a certain size but its the point on the end of the particle that does the abrading. These particles are all held in a ceramic and if you lap the ceramic base, the particles in some way become sharper.

I can understand that the ceramic base might present the particles like a bed of nails and that lapping might leave more of the nails showing and so the hone becomes more aggressive, but I don't understand how it is becomes more refined. The particles are what they are and I don't understand what the lapping process is doing to improve the cutting ability of the particles. The points do the abrading don't they, and they don't change.

The differences between the different grades of spyderco hone is dependant upon the size of particle they add into the ceramic mix before firing.

I owned an ultra fine spyderco before they became fashionable for razor sharpening. I actually returned it for a refund as I found I got a better edge of my yellow coticule.(not similar, better) I also thought it clogged far to easily and I didn't like the feedback the hone gave. I never lapped my hone because it was flat from new. I hear what you guys say about how the lapping of the ceramic improves the fineness of the finish the hone gives and I don't disbelieve you or even question what you say. But I still do not understand how or why this should be the case.
 
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mparker762

English said:
The particles on the spyderco may be a certain size but its the point on the end of the particle that does the abrading. These particles are all held in a ceramic and if you lap the ceramic base, the particles in some way become sharper.
Click to expand...

Depends on how you lap it.


LessLemming said:
Considering the fact that the Spydercos are extremely hard bond,
it could be that if the Stone is lapped by another very fine
and very hard stone (ie rubb together two Spydercos)
the edges of the Alum could be abraded itself
thereby refining to an even higher grit.
Click to expand...

This. Reasonably fine sandpaper also works - the loosened sandpaper particles rolling around between the paper and hone will also fracture the aluminum oxide in the spyderco in addition to abrading away the binder. This is the same reason the nakayama stones (which I believe also contains aluminum oxide as the abrasive) work much better than their nominal grit size - the aluminum oxide breaks down into smaller particles as it used. In the case of the nakayamas, this occurs mostly in the slurry which is why you want to leave it on from session to session. But in the Spyderco UF the aluminum oxide particles are trapped in the binder so they aren't going anywhere.

The black and translucent arkansas hones behave somewhat similar, in that the abrasives are gradually worn down and rounded off with use. Black and translucent arkansas stones benefit from a good polishing, and get progressively finer over time.
 
LessLemming

LessLemming

Hello English;
nevermind the lapping theory. It´s just a theory I came up with,
because a lot of people had very different results from that stone.

My theory as mparker repeated right is that the particels themselfes
will be worn down. If there is some kind of an abrading action
it always takes place on both the particle as well as the steel.
Even diamond is getting worn down
(this would be a great example as everybody will tell you to brake your DMT 1,2k in first!
You will see it gets considerably smoother in time)
In the case of a sharp particle it will not be "sharpened" (how would that work?)
the particle will either crumble down and become smaller thus leaving finer scratchmarks
or what´s more likely the edges will round making it more gently

You don´t see this a lot in normal waterstones,
because of the loose bondage new particles will always break free.
If however you left the slurry on the stone like it is commonly done on japanese hones
they can crumble down during the process.
Washed away, you have to start over.
But in the Spydercos there won´t be any new particles.
They are trapped. And once they´re worn down, they will stay round
and not that agressive

But the important thing I wanted to make clear is that,
even though we got a direct answer from Spyderco
we still are clueless of how they would estimate the stones themself.
There are many Grit rating systems and we don´t know wich system they are referring to.
Because of this the statement 2,500 could be anything from
8 micron to 1 micron.

btw. I hereby excuse for my bad english. You can´t be mad at these germans, right? :lol:
 
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cityjim

So it might be fair to say the Spyderco hones don't have abrasives . The way they make the surface of the ceramic performs the abrasive action .

What might be why Spyderco admitted to nothing on grit size . Just offered a comparison to grits .

And nothing was mentioned about Japanese grits LessLemming . Because their stones have NO grit .

Far as the stone loading up with metal particles and general cleaning , all you need is a green pad and Comet .


cityjim
 
E

English

Thank you Less,

I recently purchased some Alluminium Oxide powder that is sold as Linde-A. It is a polishing powder used in the jewellary trade. It is advertised as very pure and 0.3 of a micron. I think that they even make a finer grade.

So I can well understand that in principal, the surface can break down to a finer grit. That makes sense and will explain the improvement you get after lapping the surface.

I use the powder to polish the mirror finish and remove tiny scratches. It's slow but effective.

You can use the powder ofcourse in the same way that you use Chromium Oxide but I found the edge to feel sharp but a bit gritty. Probably the same as diamond powder but slower.

It's interesting how many hones have the alluminium oxide as the abrasive.
 
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cityjim

English said:
Thank you Less,

I recently purchased some Alluminium Oxide powder that is sold as Linde-A. It is a polishing powder used in the jewellary trade. It is advertised as very pure and 0.3 of a micron. I think that they even make a finer grade.

So I can well understand that in principal, the surface can break down to a finer grit. That makes sense and will explain the improvement you get after lapping the surface.

I use the powder to polish the mirror finish and remove tiny scratches. It's slow but effective.

You can use the powder ofcourse in the same way that you use Chromium Oxide but I found the edge to feel sharp but a bit gritty. Probably the same as diamond powder but slower.

It's interesting how many hones have the alluminium oxide as the abrasive.
Click to expand...


might be wise to wear a mask when dealing with those fine abrasive particles . Especially if there are children in the home .

I know when you crack the lid on simple baby power , you can smell it all over the room . Without shaking or squeezing any out . Course I'm part bloodhound so .....


cityjim
 
LessLemming

LessLemming

Hello Cityjim
I am just wondering why a ceramic maker with a reputation like spyderco
gave you the answer
A approximate "grit" for the Spyderco High Alumina Ultra Fine Ceramic is 2,500
Click to expand...
And doesn´t mention on what system the 2,500 referrs to

And you are very right with being cautious about the alum powder.
Any particle below 6µm will be able to get into your lungs and settle there.
This could cause serious problems. Honers in the older days died very early
of silicosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis

You would need a HEPA filter or work with solutions only.
Put the powder in water or oil.

I think the grittyness sensation you get from it is because of the same reason as for 0.x diamond pastes.
Both have abrading edges that actually remove metal and build a tiny burr.
Chromium oxide is round!
Chromium oxide has no edges so there is only very little abrading action involved
but rather a flatening and straightening action.
These little balls massage an straight edge into your blade.
That´s why it is so highly regarded.

You could however smoothen your Alum edge by using a bit of newspaper afterwards
 
M

mparker762

The other grade of Aluminum Oxide you're thinking of is probably the 0.05 micron stuff, which is also sometimes called Linde "B" powder. The 0.3 micron is also known as Linde "A". The "B" grade tends to clump up with use for some reason, so it acts coarser than it is. I'm fond of the "A" grade for edges - I mix it with a dab of cold cream before application.

(The Linde Corporation used to be, and still may be for all I know, one of the major suppliers of this stuff)
 
LessLemming

LessLemming

Ah, I got you wrong english. For surface polishing of old razors I usually
use fine sandpaper combined with some pastes I didn´t find to be used
for sharpening and thus are useless otherwise.
So i won´t use up my good stuff for surface polishing :wink2:
 
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cityjim

Called Spyderco again . Talked to another guy in customer service . Here are the UPDATED equivalent grit sizes for the ceramic Spyderco stones . And again the Spyderco stones have no grit .

Ultra Fine is 2,000 grit equivalent
Fine is 1,800 grit equivalent
Medium is 600 grit equivalent



The customer service rep said he would call their outlet center and inform the new guy the above info .


cityjim
 
LessLemming

LessLemming

yeah, and still we don´t know which grit-system they are referring to.
Did you ask them?

I understand that the shaptons don´t have an actual grit,
so it is wise of them to make sure we are talking about equivalents.
But the 2.000 still is totally alone.
It´s like saying my stick is 14 long.
14 what? Inches, cm, meter??
That´s something I´ve been saying all along,
the shapton glasstones are the only ones who actually say wich grit system they are referring to,
the Mesh System. It´s written on the back. That´s why they can´t be compared directly to the Naniwa for example,
because they refer to the JIS grit system. So a naniwa 16.000 JIS won´t be equal to a shapton 16.000 Mesh
(even though both systems are nearly the same)

If the 2.000 referrs to the FEPA system wich I heard should be similiar to ISO 6344
there is even one more question:
Is it F 2.000 or P 2.000
P referrs to makrogrits and will be around 8 micron
F shall be microgrits and would be around 1 micron.

As long as spyderco won´t make this clear we will still be guessing
 
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CraigJ

I don't understand how color television works but it doesn't stop me from watching a football game. I feel the same about the spyderco hones. You can call the UF #2,000 or #200,000 it works on par with a #15,000 for me. I therefore call it a #15,000 with some intersting trivia.
 
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