Set bevel on soft Arkansas

[kayvee]

I recently got a Dans 8x2 soft (and hard) Arkansas - trying to set a bevel on a barbers pet razor. I dressed the soft stone surface to 150 grit using a sic stone.

The bevel faces are being created and appear to meet. However, there seem to be chips being created at the edge. No matter how long I hone. I just a 50/50 mix of mineral oil and mineral spirits. I also tried wiping and replacing oil when I saw swarf build up. That didn’t help either.

To rule out technique and razor, I set a bevel on the same razor using my Shapton 1500. That works. In other words, the razor can hold the edge at that angle. It appears to be the stone or how I’m using the stone.

What might be the issue?

 

[Herrenberg]

A soft ark seems like it would be on the crunchy side for setting a razor bevel.

I am curious why you embarked on this project, given that you have a perfectly good bevel setter already.

The good news is that soft arks put a nice toothy edge on a kitchen knife.

 

[ables]

Either stone condition or technique I'd guess. Arkansas stones will wreck a razor edge if you "ride the edge" of the stone for just a millisecond, so I always have a decent chamfer on the edges smoothed out. Also using a 150 grit SIC stone to condition the stone isn't ideal, likely is leaving rough spots that could damage the blade. I recommend either a loose SiC grit progression on a metal cookie sheet, SiC sand paper or a diamond plate to prep an arkansas.

Also on the technical side of honing a bevel on an arkansas stone, they work best with pressure or torque while honing which is tough to do evenly.

If you have a shapton 1500, just use it, it will be way easier to bevel set. If you just want to learn to use the ark for bevel setting then your going to have to learn to lap arkansas stones properly and then evaluate the surface carefully afterwards, that is the first step.

I've got a significant amount of Arkansas rock at my house, and even I rarely want to set bevels on Arkansas stones. Jumping from that 1500 to a washita/hard/translucent progression is really nice and fun to do when your stones cooperate.

 

[Empire straights]

You might need to prep the surface further. Surface prep(even more so on washita/ soft/ medium) is if the utmost importance on arkansas stones. I would finish it around 400-600, smooth it with the hard ark and then give it a go with a lighter touch and see if that helps. You could have some larger gains scattered throughout the surface causing the chipping, you might be able to mitigate that with surface prep, maybe not though. Newer soft arks seem to have this problem sometimes of random, larger gains of quartz sprinkled in.

 

[sexy beast]

You may want to resurface the soft ark to a finer grit with sic powder. I have to admit, soft arks can be mystery stone, but a good one can set bevel. Mine is very slow but it's not my first choice as far as bevel setter. Can I use it? Sure, but not my first choice. I use dish soap and water 1/20m ratio on all my arks, even on my translucent.

 

[Bowmaker]

Every new ark I ever had shed grit when new. The sound of grit on the surface is unmistakable with pressure.
That's why new stones are rubbed down hard with the back of a chisel or similar prior to use, it's just to release the loose grit and knock down any high spots. If you have already done this it is likely technique related.

Unfortunately an ark can wreck an edge faster than it can fix one, but they work just fine for setting a bevel even if it's not the easiest way.

 

[TexNat]

I love Arks. Here are a few things I've picked up along with the way using them with razors.

Wash the stone thoroughly with dish soap and scrub it with a dish rag with soap, really scrub it. Rinse, repeat, rinse and then turn or prop it on its side to let it dry for a day. The next day when it is dry, wipe it firmly with a dry cotton rag or wash rag. Wash and rinse it again. Let it dry one more day. The goal is to make sure all of the SiC and loose Ark particles are removed. On the first use of a newly flattened/lapped stone, I wet the stone with mineral oil and give a pocket knife in M390 or 154CM or similar hard steel several light passes to make sure any loose particles are knocked loose. There is no need to grind the surface with chisels as is shown online.

Then try using the hard side with mineral oil only. Use a light touch and a microscope if you have one. Arks remove metal even when it feels like nothing is happening. Even the hard side is a bit coarse and works plenty fast enough.

fwiw - If you have a diamond plate, they work much better and faster than SiC powder to flatten. I use an Atoma 140 drenched with mineral oil on Arks and it makes quick work of flattening. Dan's stones start off pretty darned flat. To lap, I use my Naniwa water stones to lap my Arks, which is a double use, lapping the Ark and flattening the water stone. My Dan's translucent Ark that I use for a finisher is lapped on one side up to the Naniwa 5k and the other side is lapped up to the 12k and looks like glass most of the time. Might as well use the water stones for something productive rather than just washing useful material down the drain. Just make sure to rinse the water stones well and wipe with a wet cloth under running water when finished.

A pack of 100% cotton shop towels can be purchased for $5 or less and sure are handy for working with stones and easy to toss in the washing machine.

I wash and scrub my Arks with dish soap and water after every use to remove swarf and any loose particles, then turn them on their side on a shop towel to dry when finished.

Hang with it, Arks can produce a very nice, sharp and yet comfortable edge. The one thing to watch is if the blade tips up on the edge even just once, the Ark will wreck it and it is time to start over. They are very unforgiving in that respect due to their hardness.

Go slow and enjoy the time on the stones.

 

[captaincaed]

I've set bevels on a soft Ark. I'll second a few things already mentioned:

1. Chamfer the stones edges on the working face, maybe even round them
2. Dress the surface to 400-600 grit at least. A 150 grit dressing will not really cut faster, it'll just be bumpier.
3. Run a kitchen knife over it first to dislodge loose grit (soft Arks are great as a honing rod substitute, they'll touch up or deburr kitchen cutlery quite well)
4. Kick back, this will take a while. Setting the bevel first with really anything north of 400 grit will make life a lot nicer. I think of Arks as "stones to use once a bevel is set", but not what I'd pick to actually set the bevel.

 

[kayvee]

As noted above, I do have a shapton 1500 that I’m able to set bevels on. This is more of a learning journey for me and I do appreciate all the comments. Surely will help me figure things out.

I’m currently observing a toothy edge along with chips echoing what others have said.

I felt the swarf was hurting the edge so I had changed oil midway. That helped some but not completely.

I do believe the surface to be flat but can’t say with certainty that there are no quartz pieces peeking up. I will dress it to 600 grit, wash with dish soap, and other suggestions and report back.

 

[Empire straights]

Every new ark I ever had shed grit when new. The sound of grit on the surface is unmistakable with pressure.
That's why new stones are rubbed down hard with the back of a chisel or similar prior to use, it's just to release the loose grit and knock down any high spots. If you have already done this it is likely technique related.

Unfortunately an ark can wreck an edge faster than it can fix one, but they work just fine for setting a bevel even if it's not the easiest way.

I find that novaculite stones cut faster on plain water, they just clog quicker too because the water isn't flushing the pores as well and they're generating more swarf.

 

[Bowmaker]

I find that novaculite stones cut faster on plain water, they just clog quicker too because the water isn't flushing the pores as well and they're generating more swarf.

I think so on the finer stones and cogging isn't an issue there, but they can also act a little coarser too.

 

[Empire straights]

I think so on the finer stones and cogging isn't an issue there, but they can also act a little coarser too.

Yep, I usually go water for about 20 laps, 15 on oil and then leather. Speeds up the process on a hard ark. I don't finish mine past 400# though.

 

[lightfoot]

Generally speaking I’ve never been satisfied with my bevel setting attempts with any soft Arkansas stone that I own. The Washita strikes me as a better option in terms of the honing effort/end-result ratio…
You may eventually discover a working process with a soft Arkansas stone but if not I wouldn’t necessarily feel “defeated”.

 

[Empire straights]

Generally speaking I’ve never been satisfied with my bevel setting attempts with any soft Arkansas stone that I own. The Washita strikes me as a better option in terms of the honing effort/end-result ratio…
You may eventually discover a working process with a soft Arkansas stone but if not I wouldn’t necessarily feel “defeated”.

I have an old, labeled pike soft arkansas that looks just like many other old washitas. And Id put a razor on it but that about it. There are old ones you can though, I got a couple that would set a bevel, but the new production did is only good for garden hoes and stuff.

 

[Gamma]

Post a clear daylight photo of the soft Ark pls. If you have a close up of the stone's surface even better.

Soft Ark - can be a lot of things. They are not all equal.

A Soft Ark of a certain type might be a bevel setter for a razor.
Many are not cut out for the task though; they are too erratic. Some of what I call the 'cow print' soft Arks can wreak havoc on a razors bevel.
You might be able to cheat the stone by lapping it with a finer grit and using spine leading strokes. I might surface the stone with SIC grit, loose - prob not with a SIC stone though. Generally I'd polish to a much finer surface than 150x.

 

[kayvee]

Finally got some daylight so, here’s a pic. I’m unable to get a close up, but I can take pics of specific sections with my usb microscope.

 

[lightfoot]

I haven’t found these stones to be a good choice for bevel setting duties for razors in general. Chipping seems to be a common liability so that’s something to consider.

I don’t really understand the differences in terms of stone composition between the Washita vs the Soft Arkansas stones but the Washita stones seem to be a good match for razor use at the stage being discussed.

There’s always going to be rebuttals to what I’m suggesting so take it for what it’s worth…

 

[kayvee]

All input is good input - thank you @lightfoot . I'm just looking for possible things to try.

There's so much variety with these natural stones, what I experience is going to be unique and I just have to live with that. If I can't use this to set bevels so be it.

 

[Gamma]

Finally got some daylight so, here’s a pic. I’m unable to get a close up, but I can take pics of specific sections with my usb

That is what I call a ‘cow print’ soft Ark. often they sre very ‘open’, porous you might say, and inconsistent. They vary, so I cant judge yours by photo. Some like that are ok. A 1950s Norton soft Ark is a better bet, though, usually. Or a similar era Washita.

 

[kayvee]

They do appear porous particularly on the lighter side. Oh well I will relegate this to knife duty