Regent De Luxe "John Bull 21st Birthday Gift" questions

[elmerwood]

Hey guys I just recieved one of my latest purchases and had a question I was hoping someone could answer.
The set I picked up was the Regent De Luxe "John Bull 21st Birthday Gift" set. The incorrect razor appears to have came in the case but I was really aftert the shipper and box and will fill the inside later. My question is who is John Bull? I poked around the web a bit and found a lot of information about John Bull in the UK but I'm uncertain how this information pertains to this particular set. Any help with this John Bull set, and maybe some background information if any on this "John Bull" character would be great.

 

[mblakele]

I guess you have already found out that John Bull is the UK version of Uncle Sam, and vice versa? With apologies to anyone on either side of the Atlantic who feels offended by either side of that comparison, of course.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/british/britintr.html

But I am not sure why Gillette UK would market a John Bull set. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_bull he originated ca. 1712 so the 21st birthday would not be his. The whole set looks a bit like this one (via Achim), so I think the shipper and case might be correct for the razor after all.

 

[elmerwood]

The razor in my case I believe is a British New, and is to new to go with the box? This is just a guess but maybe in the UK they have a drafting age like we have here in the states and maybe there's is 21, and then I could see something with John Bull and a 21st birthday/ Uncle Sam like thing.

 

[alex2363]

The razor in my case I believe is a British New, and is to new to go with the box? This is just a guess but maybe in the UK they have a drafting age like we have here in the states and maybe there's is 21, and then I could see something with John Bull and a 21st birthday/ Uncle Sam like thing.

Mblakele already answered your question;


But I am not sure why Gillette UK would market a John Bull set. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_bull he originated ca. 1712 so the 21st birthday would not be his. The whole set looks a bit like this one (via Achim), so I think the shipper and case might be correct for the razor after all.

 

[mblakele]

The razor in my case I believe is a British New, and is to new to go with the box? This is just a guess but maybe in the UK they have a drafting age like we have here in the states and maybe there's is 21, and then I could see something with John Bull and a 21st birthday/ Uncle Sam like thing.

Could be something like that, or a marketing campaign that we have never heard about.

But is your razor a NEW or an Old? The style is not clear to me from your photos. How do the cap and guard fit together?

 

[elmerwood]

They put a "New" in the case. Its this model here.

 

[mblakele]

Ah - I think I found the right ebay listing and there was a clear image of the NEW-style guard plate. That should be a great shaver.

Could Gillette have been using up spare parts again? Or since your set is missing the original blade, maybe the original owner swapped out the razor?

Can you make out the patent mark on the handle? The UK patent for the Old Type was 28763.02.

I wonder what was so nice about this Regent De Luxe to justify the 10s/6d price? Back in 1924 http://mr-razor.com/Werbung/C 1924 New Standard England-01.jpg mentions Old Type sets for just 5/- with two blades (4 edges), and http://mr-razor.com/Werbung/C 1931 NEW Belmont England.jpg still talks about 5s sets after the NEW became available. So this Regent De Luxe was a little over twice the price of an entry-level set, and only included one blade.

 

[72plymsatellite]

that may be one of your worst sets yet. just give it to me already, it will make us both feel better

thats the only info i have lol im only good for useless comments

 

[DrAwkward]

Curses! You beat me out for that set. I really just wanted the razor, not the case or the shipper, so I guess it ended up in the right hands. And I found another razor of the same model a few days later ...

 

[Ace McCool]

Never even saw this on eBay.. I need to watch closer. What a beautiful set. Congrats.

 

[mr-razor]

Hmmm, now I´m confused: the same box like yours, "John Bull 21st Birthday Gift" too, but called "Empire De Luxe"

 

[alex2363]

I would say that Gillette is using spare parts, ingenious marketing to sell them.

 

[mblakele]

Just speculating, but what if the shipping box had a blank area that could be filled in with a custom message? A custom set might justify the 10s/6d price, vs the then-standard 5s entry-level set. For customization I am thinking along the lines of the Beacon set: http://mr-razor.com/Rasierer/Old Type/1924 Beacon Ararat Temple.JPG

If so I would guess that these were shop display sets, and "John Bull" was used as a placeholder like "John Smith" or (for our friends in Germany) "Max Mustermann". This would have sounded better than using the more usual UK "Joe Bloggs", which sounds a bit common or even insulting. In the USA we would never use Uncle Sam like that, but he is a more purely allegorical character than John Bull. Anyway we have plenty of other placeholders: John Smith, John Doe, Joe Sixpack, etc.

The occasion message under that would also be a placeholder. When purchased, an actual name and message would be stenciled onto a fresh box using black ink. The shop display set would not be sold until the shop was done with it. So it is easy to see how a shop display set would remain intact all this time, maybe never used at all. Or if the product failed, some shops might have sold them off at a deep discount. Some buyers might have kept the box as a joke. I suspect such a product would fail, too. Would you pay twice as much for what amounts to a customized gift-wrap?

There are several problems with this idea. I would expect the case to include a custom message too, but we have not seen that. Maybe the Gillette UK management thought that was a bit too ostentatious? Also I would expect that we would already know all about this type, with other pieces using actual names and occasions. This is a bit less of a problem if the message was only on the shipper, and those were lost. Or if the idea simply flopped: we might not have noticed the blank shippers, or Gillette could have recycled the contents in other sets.

 

[MacDaddy]

I don't have a ton to add here... The price on the carton would seem to rule out the notion that it was an early version of Gillette's "Free razor on your 18th birthday" program. The notion of it being a placeholder message to represent a personalized carton is possible, I suppose, but doesn't really feel right. It seems like that would have been nearly as much trouble as personalizing the razors or cases themselves, but far less permanent as a gift.

One possibility is that we're misreading the use of "John Bull" here a bit. He's not exactly analogous to our Uncle Sam, who we read more as a personification of the United States government; John Bull seems to have been more a personification of "Britishness." A rough American equivalent might be part Uncle Sam part Paul Bunyan. So maybe it was more of an expansion of the "Big Fellow" marketing angle -- an appeal to British manliness. I don't know why specifically the 21st birthday, though...

Justin, I've been looking at your photos here and the original auction shots as well. Is it just me or is the carton just slightly too long for the case? Is it possible that what you've got here is, to Achim's point, an Empire Deluxe in a Regent Deluxe's carton? Though, if that's true, it's a bit puzzling that the price would have been the same...

 

[alex2363]

Just speculating, but what if the shipping box had a blank area that could be filled in with a custom message? A custom set might justify the 10s/6d price, vs the then-standard 5s entry-level set. For customization I am thinking along the lines of the Beacon set: http://mr-razor.com/Rasierer/Old%20Type/1924%20Beacon%20Ararat%20Temple.JPG

If so I would guess that these were shop display sets, and "John Bull" was used as a placeholder like "John Smith" or (for our friends in Germany) "Max Mustermann". This would have sounded better than using the more usual UK "Joe Bloggs", which sounds a bit common or even insulting. In the USA we would never use Uncle Sam like that, but he is a more purely allegorical character than John Bull. Anyway we have plenty of other placeholders: John Smith, John Doe, Joe Sixpack, etc.

The occasion message under that would also be a placeholder. When purchased, an actual name and message would be stenciled onto a fresh box using black ink. The shop display set would not be sold until the shop was done with it. So it is easy to see how a shop display set would remain intact all this time, maybe never used at all. Or if the product failed, some shops might have sold them off at a deep discount. Some buyers might have kept the box as a joke. I suspect such a product would fail, too. Would you pay twice as much for what amounts to a customized gift-wrap?

There are several problems with this idea. I would expect the case to include a custom message too, but we have not seen that. Maybe the Gillette UK management thought that was a bit too ostentatious? Also I would expect that we would already know all about this type, with other pieces using actual names and occasions. This is a bit less of a problem if the message was only on the shipper, and those were lost. Or if the idea simply flopped: we might not have noticed the blank shippers, or Gillette could have recycled the contents in other sets.

This sounds logical...How would Gillette management even think of such a marketing concept? What target market would it be aimed at? This may seem too sophisticated of a marketing idea.

 

[alex2363]

I don't have a ton to add here... The price on the carton would seem to rule out the notion that it was an early version of Gillette's "Free razor on your 18th birthday" program. The notion of it being a placeholder message to represent a personalized carton is possible, I suppose, but doesn't really feel right. It seems like that would have been nearly as much trouble as personalizing the razors or cases themselves, but far less permanent as a gift.

One possibility is that we're misreading the use of "John Bull" here a bit. He's not exactly analogous to our Uncle Sam, who we read more as a personification of the United States government; John Bull seems to have been more a personification of "Britishness." A rough American equivalent might be part Uncle Sam part Paul Bunyan. So maybe it was more of an expansion of the "Big Fellow" marketing angle -- an appeal to British manliness. I don't know why specifically the 21st birthday, though...

Justin, I've been looking at your photos here and the original auction shots as well. Is it just me or is the carton just slightly too long for the case? Is it possible that what you've got here is, to Achim's point, an Empire Deluxe in a Regent Deluxe's carton? Though, if that's true, it's a bit puzzling that the price would have been the same...

Your theory sounds more viable. The marketing would be aimed at the Big Fellow manliness group. That can explain the John Bull naming of the set. But was it a failure?

 

[TheEye]

awesome information and now you have to find the correct razor which will fit the box

 

[thekinge]

.....

Justin, I've been looking at your photos here and the original auction shots as well. Is it just me or is the carton just slightly too long for the case? Is it possible that what you've got here is, to Achim's point, an Empire Deluxe in a Regent Deluxe's carton? Though, if that's true, it's a bit puzzling that the price would have been the same...

Not trying to be an expert here, but while browsing through for information on another old type set that I won recently, I stumbled across this razor set from Renzo Jardella's collection:


From this picture, it seems to me that there were two separate "John Bull 21st Birthday" sets, the Empire Deluxe and the Regent Deluxe. What Justin has appears unfortunately to be a mismatched set in my opinion.

Also, in the footnote of the picture, it is noted that this is a 21st birthday gift set from the John Bull magazine. A quick search in Google yields this rather concise Wiki result:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bull_(magazine)

Although I have not been able to find a cover whose font style for the "John Bull" cover title matches the calligraphic style found on the shipper of Justin & Achim's sets, I do believe that it is viable that the magazine may have been giving this away as a gift set given that Gillette was already producing such old type gift sets for various hotels and temples around the same time.

 

[mblakele]

Excellent find, thanks. The magazine is new to me, but I find it much more plausible than our other speculations.

Does Renzo have his collection online somewhere, or are you in communication with him?

 

[elmerwood]

Does Renzo have his collection online somewhere, or are you in communication with him?

Here is a small snippet of his collection.