question

[ixiboneheadixi]

what angle do you have to hold the blade at when you sharpen? like do the straight razors have a bevel? as ive seen people on youtube sharpen their razors by putting it straight down on the sharpening stone, and having it so the spine and the end of the blade touch it so its like on its side. saying the spine is angled for a reason so you can press the whole thing down to make it easier to sharpen. but if the razors have a bevel obviously thats a bunch of crap.

also why do people call it honing? honing re aligns micro serrations along the edge of the blade and does not sharpen it or take off metal. when you use a stone you take off metal and sharpen it. two different things, most people sharpen their blade, not hone it. and the stones are sharpening stones not honing stones. unless for whatever reason the shaving community gave different terms to things to confuses anyone who has ever sharpend a kitchen knife, hunting knife or any kind of knife

 

[fast14riot]

First off, I see your new here, WELCOME! Please take some time to read through the shaveWiki, it will have answers to your questions and ones you haven't thought of yet.

Razors are laid with their spine against the stone, that is what sets the angle for the edge bevel. Razors are hollow ground, i.e. concave, so only the spine and edge are touching the stone. This explains your "bunch of crap" theory. But edges are typically 15-17* inclusive.

"Micro serrations" as you call it, are not typically realigned in honing a knife, the edge as a whole is usually realigned. The micro serrations you refer to are likely from low grit sharpening, 2k or less, the idea of razor honing is to have as smooth an edge as possible.

Honing, the present participle of hone (verb), means to make sharper, more focused. That can be through minute removal of metal, or a "steel" that fixed rolled edges.


-Xander

 

[bloodyface]

Hi Patrick.

Without beeing an expert on the subjekt there is a difference in shaping, sharping, honing, precise as you explained.

The grit on the stone is the one thing, and the stones ability to make micro polish grains (natural wetstones Vs artificial wetstones) is an other thing. Diamond (Shapton) is yet again a different way to (hone/sharpen.

Sharpening stones range from 220 - 1200
Honing stones 4000-30000.

The grits mentioned is what I know exists, but there is bound to be a lot of different grits.

A 30000 grit stone cost about 300 euro.

The best regards

Richardt

 

[Kavik79]

wait till you see a full wedge, where the whole width of the blade is the bevel.....that'll really blow your mind LOL

seriously though, like Xander said, the spine is wider and therefore creates the proper bevel angle at the edge of the blade. Imagine it like if you are sharpening a knife with an angle guide attached to the back of the blade...it's just like that, only built in.

as for the honing vs. sharpening...eh, po-tay-toes and puh-tah-tos. If you really want to get technical, not a whole lot of metal gets removed after the initial bevel is set. Beyond that, a majority of it is just polishing of the bevel.


forget what you know about terms and techniques for sharpening knives and just accept that they're two separate things entirely. at any rate, open your mind a bit and do some reading....if it's been working for hundreds of years, it can't be that much crap

 

[ixiboneheadixi]

ok thanks guys. after seeing so many youtube videos of different facts/opinions i was getting frustrated and had to know what was actually true and such. also im so used to kitchen knives as i use stones on mine and a honing steel. so that was the whole honing vs sharpening thing.

and before i really start to read up on it, what grit stone do people usually go up to. on a kitchen knive i usually go up to 14k. yeah i like them kinda sharp, i could probably shave with one haha. and do you strop right after sharpening, also what exactly does stropping do? just want a quick to the point answer before i really read up on it, just so i know what im reading is true

 

[fast14riot]

12K is a common stopping point. Stropping is done after honing, it acts as a honing steel would on a kitchen knife, refining the edge and also putting the final polish on the edge. Even if you take your kitchen knives to a proper 14K edge, I still wouldn't want to shave with them. The edge angle is too obtuse to efficiently cut hair. Coming in at 30-40* inclusive.

Also, sharpening a kitchen knife to 14K seems like a wasted effort. For an edge that is going to be used on hard surfaces (compared to skin and hair) I doubt the edge apex will stay at a 14K sharpness. But I use kitchen knives a lot, and my wife is a chef and uses them 8+ hours a day, I keep all our knives at a 1500 grit edge and use a ceramic rod to touch up. If you enjoy doing the work to sharpen them that fine, then don't let me stand in your way, but there is a purpose for lower grit edges as well. Hell, my rigging knife I keep a 400# edge on just for cutting rope efficiently, and it can shave hair just fine!


-Xander

 

[ixiboneheadixi]

12K is a common stopping point. Stropping is done after honing, it acts as a honing steel would on a kitchen knife, refining the edge and also putting the final polish on the edge. Even if you take your kitchen knives to a proper 14K edge, I still wouldn't want to shave with them. The edge angle is too obtuse to efficiently cut hair. Coming in at 30-40* inclusive.

Also, sharpening a kitchen knife to 14K seems like a wasted effort. For an edge that is going to be used on hard surfaces (compared to skin and hair) I doubt the edge apex will stay at a 14K sharpness. But I use kitchen knives a lot, and my wife is a chef and uses them 8+ hours a day, I keep all our knives at a 1500 grit edge and use a ceramic rod to touch up. If you enjoy doing the work to sharpen them that fine, then don't let me stand in your way, but there is a purpose for lower grit edges as well. Hell, my rigging knife I keep a 400# edge on just for cutting rope efficiently, and it can shave hair just fine!


-Xander

so your saying too sharp can be bad? cause ive seen people who will only shave after its gone through a 20 000 grit stone before. and it seems to work for them just fine just sharper.

but yeah the only reason i sharpen a couple of kitchen knives that sharp is i dont use them for just chopping and mincing, i keep the really sharp hand made knives at 14 k for the reason of specialty work when i really need a super sharp knife.

 

[bloodyface]

If the core in the kitchenknife is high quality (ATS 34) or white paper steel, it is worth the effort, if the knife is treated with care, I think.

But just a guess..

R

 

[MileMarker60]

so your saying too sharp can be bad? cause ive seen people who will only shave after its gone through a 20 000 grit stone before. and it seems to work for them just fine just sharper.

but yeah the only reason i sharpen a couple of kitchen knives that sharp is i dont use them for just chopping and mincing, i keep the really sharp hand made knives at 14 k for the reason of specialty work when i really need a super sharp knife.

No, to sharp isn't a issue but there is one big difference in a razor and a kitchen knife. Typically your not shave with a kitchen knife everyday (though Honed might ..lol)
There is a difference is just being sharp and being sharp and comfortable. With a razor the comfortable part is as important as the sharp part.

Are you shaving with a straight now?

 

[BakerAndBadger]

Forget the 14K stone and get a coticule. A one stop honing shop. Even better, you may want to look for an elusive ultimate coticule, 70% or higher garnet content.

 

[Kavik79]

Not for nothing, but this guy said in another post that he already has stones up to the 30k range....so buying a coticule might be pointless

here's the thing though bonehead, a stone for use with razors has to be lapped completely flat at all times. In general, stones tend to dish more from use with knives, because of the increased angle and pressure used. So, tell us about your stones? If it's something you can use both sides on you could use one side for knives and one side for razors only. But if, say, you have thin stones mounted on bases so you can only use one side, you might be better off buying another set for razor use only, as you'd be wasting a lot of material lapping them flat every time you want to hone a razor

There are people who shave off an 8k edge, others who take it to 30k then to .25 micron pastes (equivalent to about 60k I think?). The only way to find out what kind of an edge works for you is to try shaving off everything you can and see what's the most comfortable

 

[BakerAndBadger]

30k for a knife? Blimey that edge wouldn't last long cutting Doc's cherry tomatoes let alone anything else you might like to dismember.

 

[Doc226]

30k for a knife? Blimey that edge wouldn't last long cutting Doc's cherry tomatoes let alone anything else you might like to dismember.

The edge would be fine as long as you don't hit a seed-LOL

 

[BakerAndBadger]

Do they have seedless cherry tomatoes like seedless grapes? If not I'm patenting the idea!

 

[Doc226]

Do they have seedless cherry tomatoes like seedless grapes? If not I'm patenting the idea!

Good idea-LOL

By the way the cherry tomatoes are just for bevel checking stage

 

[tomjr]

welcome, razors hone flat on the stone with tape or without. tom

 

[ixiboneheadixi]

Not for nothing, but this guy said in another post that he already has stones up to the 30k range....so buying a coticule might be pointless

here's the thing though bonehead, a stone for use with razors has to be lapped completely flat at all times. In general, stones tend to dish more from use with knives, because of the increased angle and pressure used. So, tell us about your stones? If it's something you can use both sides on you could use one side for knives and one side for razors only. But if, say, you have thin stones mounted on bases so you can only use one side, you might be better off buying another set for razor use only, as you'd be wasting a lot of material lapping them flat every time you want to hone a razor

There are people who shave off an 8k edge, others who take it to 30k then to .25 micron pastes (equivalent to about 60k I think?). The only way to find out what kind of an edge works for you is to try shaving off everything you can and see what's the most comfortable

i have two of each stone i have, that way i lap it flat with the same grit stone, and i do it before each time i sharpen my knives so those things are dead flat all the time any way. i take my knives seriously lol

 

[Wid]

Just wondering? Have you drew a pencil grid on those stones and try and lap them to see if the grid come off entirely.

 

[fast14riot]

The only reason I think taking them that far is a wasted effort, in my opinion, is that's a lot of time sharpening. I use my knives a lot and don't like to spend a whole lot of time sharpening them to super high grits as often as I do. I maintain my edes with a ceramic rod, so that greatly extends time betwen going to the stone or power tools. I often times will put high grade films on my 9" disc grinder and restore a severly abused edge that way, especially the knives that stay at my wifes work kitchen. They get abused by all kinds of people. Again, just my opinion. Also, th slight serrations of a 1500 grit edge work exceptionally well on waxy skinned food, like tomatoes and egg plant.

But my edc fixed blade is convexed up to 3K and polished on a leather belt. I use my knives hard, so always worrying about my pristine 14K edge isn't an issue for me.


-Xander

 

[ixiboneheadixi]

Just wondering? Have you drew a pencil grid on those stones and try and lap them to see if the grid come off entirely.

yes i have done that before, but after using your stones enough you tend to know when they are flat without doing that