Question About Razor Head Geometry

[Jay21]

I have a question regarding razor head geometry that I'm trying to wrap my head around. I apologize if this has been discussed here previously, but my search here and on Google didn't yield any significant results. Maybe I'm not using the correct keywords and/or have too poor of an understanding of the concept to properly search for it.

Excuse my poor drawing abilities, but it was the best I could do on my computer with a mouse. I'm not Picasso! I also didn't want to use pictures without permission, so I drew my own, and poorly at that.

In my mind, it seems like we can divide DE razor heads into two major categories, which I feel are "new" and "old." I hope this makes sense, but it's how I've been visualizing things. I hope I'm not totally missing the mark here.

In the "new" design, the base plate is flat and the cap is curved. The blade is exposed in an open channel, which can either be a closed comb or an open comb. Take the RazoRock Game Changer, for example. It can have the same blade gap but be either closed or open comb. However, there is still a channel that exposes the blade. If understand it correctly, while the gap is the same, the open comb lets in more hair and lather, whereas the closed comb lets in less, but keeps the skin more taut.

In the "old" design, both the base plate and cap are curved. The blade is very rigidly placed and it rides very closely along the base plate. There is no channel that exposes the blade, if this makes any sense. The blade rests on top of the comb, no channel needed for blade exposure. The blade is sort of just sticking out in space without any sort of guard blocking it.

Anyway, it seems like in the "new" design, the channel has the same gap regardless if it is a closed or open comb. For whatever reason, this design doesn't shave my beard very well, which grows almost parallel to my skin in various places. The blade can't "lift" the whiskers or whatever magic gremlin physics is involved.

In the "old" design, since there is no channel, there is more direct blade contact with the skin. For whatever reason, this design shaves my face much better. Perhaps it's able to "lift" the whiskers a little better. It seems like this design only comes in open comb. This is the design you see in Fatips, Merkurs, RazoRock Old Type, Pearls, Yaqi clones, and SLOCs and their relatives.

My questions are:

1. Does this make sense at all and am I understanding this correctly?
2. Are there any significant differences in how open combs in either the "new" or "old" type shave faces? It seems so on my face, but maybe I'm imagining things.
3. Are there any closed comb designs in what I consider the "old" type? Would such a design even be possible? If so, I might like to try some.
4. Are there any "modern" open combs in the "old" type other than the ones I listed above?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Wgg2017]

I don't really understand razor design and history well enough to answer your specific questions, but as someone who also has whiskers that lay flat against my neck, I can tell you what has worked for me and what hasn't.

The bottom line for me is that any razor designed like your "new" type drawing, which do not clamp down snugly on the length of the blade, always result in a great deal of skipping/blade chatter where my whiskers lay flat. Specific razors of this design that I've tried and do not work for me include Charcoal Goods, Blackland Blackbird, Feather AS-D2, and others of this design type.

Razors that do work well for me and are more like your old type drawing, and clamp down snugly on the length of the blade, include the Timeless original Titanium, CB Karve, and Tatara Masamune (although this razor resulted in many weepers for some reason).

In single edge blades the Blackland Sabre and Vector work very well because of the inherent blade rigidity.

And that's what it really comes down to for me. If the blade is held very rigid, the razor is smooth and works every where on my face. If it isn't held rigid, I'm going to have trouble around my neck where the whiskers lay flat.

Hope this helps.

 

[Guido75]

Does this make sense at all and am I understanding this correctly?

I do see what you are getting at, and I can get soapy good shaves with both types. If it’s a lesser it usually falls in the new category.

I am not an expert on razor design, but I think the difference you are pointing to is the blade exposure relative to the cap and baseplate. There is an imaginary line between the end of the baseplate and the end of the cap. If a blade crossed that line we call it positive blade exposure. If it’s on the line it’s neutral and behind the line is negative.


Take for example my Greencult or Ti95 - both fall in the new type category but because of the positive blade exposure give me really close shaves.

Lifting of skin I associate with old Gillette commercials for cartridge razors. With DE I believe it’s more about reduction than it is about lifting and cutting. Hence the reason for more than one pass. At least that’s how I see it.

Are there any closed comb designs in what I consider the "old" type? Would such a design even be possible? If so, I might like to try some.

Yes there are. Swedish razors like the Swing and Matador are like this and so are a number of older German razors. The Swing has a blade gap larger than my Ti95.

Are there any "modern" open combs in the "old" type other than the ones I listed above?

Depends on your definition of modern and if hybrid combs are allowed. The R41 is by design more an old style in your context than a new style. The Eclipse Red Ring comes to mind (still vintage). And I would say the Lambda Athena is curved downward as well.

Fun questions!

Guido

 

[NorthernSoul]

Well,there are many variations in head design, not just two. What you are calling 'new' is the cantilever type design, which is found on many Merkur and Muhle razors, among others.

If you're looking for a razor that has a safety bar, yet supports the blade out very close to the edge, one modern possibility would be the Henson:

There's also Razorock (Game Changer, Lupo), Blackland and many others.

In vintage razors, you could look at the post-war Gillette Tech or one of its variations. Notice a slightly curved base plate that supports the blade out close to the edge.

 

[Jay21]

Thank you for the wonderful and detailed answers. They are helpful and informative.

 

[Jay21]

The bottom line for me is that any razor designed like your "new" type drawing, which do not clamp down snugly on the length of the blade, always result in a great deal of skipping/blade chatter where my whiskers lay flat. Specific razors of this design that I've tried and do not work for me include Charcoal Goods, Blackland Blackbird, Feather AS-D2, and others of this design type.

Razors that do work well for me and are more like your old type drawing, and clamp down snugly on the length of the blade, include the Timeless original Titanium, CB Karve, and Tatara Masamune (although this razor resulted in many weepers for some reason).

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense. It's also sort of a validation of my opinion about my shaving struggles. I FEEL SEEN!

Yes there are. Swedish razors like the Swing and Matador are like this and so are a number of older German razors. The Swing has a blade gap larger than my Ti95.

Depends on your definition of modern and if hybrid combs are allowed. The R41 is by design more an old style in your context than a new style. The Eclipse Red Ring comes to mind (still vintage). And I would say the Lambda Athena is curved downward as well.

Fun questions!

Guido

I'll have to look at those razors. I have the r41 as well. It shaves me super clean but I haven't yet mastered it as it causes me irritation. More practice is ahead of me.

Well,there are many variations in head design, not just two. What you are calling 'new' is the cantilever type design, which is found on many Merkur and Muhle razors, among others.

If you're looking for a razor that has a safety bar, yet supports the blade out very close to the edge, one modern possibility would be the Henson:

There's also Razorock (Game Changer, Lupo), Blackland and many others.

In vintage razors, you could look at the post-war Gillette Tech or one of its variations. Notice a slightly curved base plate that supports the blade out close to the edge.

I have the Henson, and it shaves me like a wood planer. It seems to scrape more than it shaves, causing me irritation. It's a fine design, but it doesn't seem to like my whiskers that lie parallel to my skin.

I've had my eye on the GC OC.

I'm definitely going to check out the Tech and its clones. I read a lot about those last night when I went down a rabbit hole before bed.

 

[NorthernSoul]

...I have the Henson, and it shaves me like a wood planer. It seems to scrape more than it shaves, causing me irritation. It's a fine design, but it doesn't seem to like my whiskers that lie parallel to my skin.

...I'm definitely going to check out the Tech and its clones. I read a lot about those last night when I went down a rabbit hole before bed.

For the Tech, I'd see about getting a vintage one from years 1946-1951 or so. These are all-brass and provide the kind of blade support I think you're looking for. There's no date code on them, but you can learn to ID one by sight. Early 1950s are usually good, too. It is a fairly mild razor, but can still give a close shave with practice. Clones are not all-brass and may not shave as well.

For the Henson, it's hard to say, but many people do get good results with them. The shaving angle is unique and there is very little blade exposure. Only a small amount of pressure is needed when the angle is right.

 

[Patrice]

In close comb, you have the fatip piccolo. Otherwise, from what you describe I think you could like the superslant.

 

[romsitsa]

Gillette short comb New.

 

[nemo]

... the "old" design, both the base plate and cap are curved. The blade is very rigidly placed and it rides very closely along the base plate. There is no channel that exposes the blade, if this makes any sense. The blade rests on top of the comb ...

No, it does not sit on the comb. There must be a gap! It would not cut anything but stripes if so. Common misconception.
It will touch the baseplate but not the comb portion.
Look closely, magnify it, stick paper in between, whatever -- you will see a gap. If not, there is a big problem.

 

[Jay21]

No, it does not sit on the comb. There must be a gap! It would not cut anything but stripes if so. Common misconception.
It will touch the baseplate but not the comb portion.
Look closely, magnify it, stick paper in between, whatever -- you will see a gap. If not, there is a big problem.

Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.

 

[Jay21]

Here’s an answer to my original inquiry. I’ve been reading this book and it had this brief passage. It makes perfect sense.

 

[BrianWithAnI]

Interesting questions indeed.

I have always found the following entry very helpful to me in B&B's wiki with regards to razor head geometry:
Safety Razor Parameters: Illustrated and Defined - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/wiki/Safety_Razor_Parameters:_Illustrated_and_Defined

Using the parameters laid out by @ShavingByTheNumbers in this reference, one major difference in your "NEW type" and "OLD type" drawings is that in the "NEW type", the free-end distance is significantly shorter than the clamp distance. Whereas, in the "OLD type" drawing, the free-end distance is very similar in measure to the clamp distance.

Of course, this is not the only difference in @Jay21 's drawings above, but this difference is the first that jumps out at me.

 

[Slapo]

The R41 is by design more an old style in your context than a new style.

It really isn't - in the R41, the blade clamping area is about the same distance from the cutting edge as in the R89 head.
It's just that there's a lot less space between the base plate and the blade along the free-end part of the blade, so it's not as apparent.

 

[Slapo]

In the "new" design, the base plate is flat and the cap is curved. The blade is exposed in an open channel, which can either be a closed comb or an open comb. Take the RazoRock Game Changer, for example. It can have the same blade gap but be either closed or open comb. However, there is still a channel that exposes the blade. If understand it correctly, while the gap is the same, the open comb lets in more hair and lather, whereas the closed comb lets in less, but keeps the skin more taut.

In the "old" design, both the base plate and cap are curved. The blade is very rigidly placed and it rides very closely along the base plate. There is no channel that exposes the blade, if this makes any sense. The blade rests on top of the comb, no channel needed for blade exposure. The blade is sort of just sticking out in space without any sort of guard blocking it.

Anyway, it seems like in the "new" design, the channel has the same gap regardless if it is a closed or open comb. For whatever reason, this design doesn't shave my beard very well, which grows almost parallel to my skin in various places. The blade can't "lift" the whiskers or whatever magic gremlin physics is involved.

In the "old" design, since there is no channel, there is more direct blade contact with the skin. For whatever reason, this design shaves my face much better. Perhaps it's able to "lift" the whiskers a little better. It seems like this design only comes in open comb. This is the design you see in Fatips, Merkurs, RazoRock Old Type, Pearls, Yaqi clones, and SLOCs and their relatives.

My questions are:

1. Does this make sense at all and am I understanding this correctly?
2. Are there any significant differences in how open combs in either the "new" or "old" type shave faces? It seems so on my face, but maybe I'm imagining things.
3. Are there any closed comb designs in what I consider the "old" type? Would such a design even be possible? If so, I might like to try some.
4. Are there any "modern" open combs in the "old" type other than the ones I listed above?

Thank you in advance.

If the closed comb/safety bar keeps the skin more taut, there's a good chance one's using too much pressure when shaving.
An open comb doesn't really let more hair in, it just doesn't force hair to lie flat(ter) against the skin. If hair is sufficiently long (and the growth is sufficiently dense), a safety bar is going to end up "hairplaning". This is easy to verify if you have a an area of dense hair growth on you.
Less smooshing is why an open comb is generally better at removing longer growth.

A shorter free-end distance (what you call an "old" design) doesn't necessarily mean less blade gap - the Blackland Era was an example of that.

Regardless of whether the free-end distance is short ("old" design) or long ("new" design), it doesn't change the amount of blade in contact with the skin. That would be blade exposure.
See the link @BrianWithAnI provided to the wiki for an explanation and illustration of what it is.

As other have pointed out, the longer free-end distance means DE blades can flex more. Can cause the blade to skip more.
Counter measures include:
- (partial) riding the cap (i.e. maintaining as shallow a blade angle as the razor allows for),
- using a shim (between the blade and base plate, or two shims to sandwich the actual blade).

To avoid excessive blade flex, there are some razors that have a longer free-end distance that clamp the blade well and then the top cap forces the blade to curve down. Henson razors do this, and they don't even have as much free-end distance as some other razors.

Others, like e.g. the Razolution razor that can take two DE blades, bend the blade significantly.

A bunch of razors do both bend the blade and clamp it close to the cutting edge at the same time.
Examples of such are Gillette Old type, some Techs, Merkur open comb head, Merkur 45, Fatip heads, RazoRock Baby Smooth, BBS, Mamba, Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements Ascension and META-4 (and the original razors they are a twist on), Yaqi Harlequin, some slants and other razors.

Others that don't curve the blade as much but try to clamp the blade relatively close to the edge to keep the blade fairly rigid include the likes of Karve, Haircut & Shave razors, Feather AS-D2, Yaqi Telstar, dscosmetic AX, RazoRock Lupos and Game Changers, some Wolfman DEs and others.

I have the same issue with hair growing almost flat against the skin on my neck, where my skin is also quite sensitive, and I find that razors that either leave very little free-end or curve the blade significantly to keep the free-end of the blade pretty rigid work a well there.
However, I also do employ both variants of the Gillette slide there for extra comfort.

Hope this helps.