Ponder This

[rickboone1]

As a newbie to the field we come in and are mesmerized with all the choices available. We drool at the collection of various members' shiny goods, their could-be-mortgagae premium silver-tipped and gold-splashed brushes and their vast array of creams,potions, lotions, tonics galore, oh my!

What am I getting at? A lot of rambling really.

My grandfather, my wife's grandfather. They shave about everyday. Save for the one period of time my grandfather grew a beard. These guys, I personally know and see on a regular basis. Their skin is slick!! No stubble EVER! No bumps or irritation EVER! Their tools? Mostly disposable single edge BIC's, a bar of soap or canned goo.

What does this tell you?

Urinate on all the fancy stuff. Learn technique! Learn technique! And, while you're at it--learn technique. All the expensive stuff in the world or on Old Bonds Street cannot grant you a BBS. They are fun to add to the mix, yet not a necessity. I can never imagine either of the above men swirling a chubby Simpson around their face. A cheap, well used boar, sure. But these guys don't even need a brush. What's up with that?

I did always wonder why it was grandpa seemed anxious to disappear into the bathroom as if he looked forward to going in there and shaving. Now I know. It is all about 2 things ultimately: a BBS and the experience. Adding fancy hard and software is a bonus. But without the experience and ultimately that BBS you strive for you've got squat. So you have a $3656.65 brush--do you enjoy using it?

 

[bythbook]

... So you have a $3656.65 brush--do you enjoy using it?

...why YES!

Yes, I do.

Thanks for asking.

 

[SiBurning]

What does this tell you?

More than anything, it tells me they suffered through a lot of bad shaves, their faces got used to it, and at this point could probably shave dry with a splinter off a 2x4. Disposable blades are a lot better than they were 15 years ago, but back then, those bic blades were just awful--full of burrs.

Now I know. It is all about 2 things ultimately: a BBS and the experience. Adding fancy hard and software is a bonus. But without the experience and ultimately that BBS you strive for you've got squat. So you have a $3656.65 brush--do you enjoy using it?

This part makes me think you've come to a point where you're able to make informed decisions for yourself. Not eveyone shares the same goals, though. A lot of people are happy with DFS or even SAS, and others enjoy trying out different products.

I basically agree with your main thoughts here, but am a little nervous about it giving newbies the wrong idea. It just doesn't seem like the best advice for newbies. They might get the idea that their $10 starter kit and lousy blades are great, and it's their fault they're not getting great results. It's not all about technique. Personally, I think newbies need good tools more than experienced shavers.

 

[strat1117]

...why YES!

Yes, I do.

Thanks for asking.

Me too, Jon, me too. I've yet to see a post from this particular gentleman that wasn't distinctly negative.

 

[DonOhio]

I've yet to see a post from this particular gentleman that wasn't distinctly negative.

Indeed.

 

[DonOhio]

I hasten to add that he has a point about technique vs good hardware...there's a place for both. But any newbies (myself included) who do not pick up on that fact when VOLUMES have been rightly preached about it on half of all threads here...well, they're just too eager and/or not paying close enough attention.

 

[rickboone1]

Good points made. I agree they probably could suffer through anything. And, the whole point of my observation is; you can use subpar tools and beat the pants off anything myself can do. I can blame whatever I want, it comes down to experience and practice. We can debate all day over which product is best. The whole point is, experience: to me, is rather impressive. Not sure how this interprets as negative, but oh well. Life moves on. .

I envy one of those glistening shaves the elders in my life produce! And the fact they do it with what they do it with is just fascinating.

To clarifly: for those that don't listen, I have no issues whatsoever with the most expensive tools on the planet. I have some myself. My point with that is two-fold--my grandfather and the wife's can get a better shave than me without these tools. And secondly, if you don't enjoy the experience the tools, despite the cost, are worthless. If that's negative or against them, I'm sorry you interpret it that way.

The fact is, as a newb, such as myself and that has gotten others into the art need to ensure the person learns technique more than anything. Practice!

Like I said, enjoy your experience shaving, the tools are a bonus. That seems positive to me! You get a bonus.

I wonder how many people come into the art, drop say...$300 into gear, then fizzle back into their old ways? Do you think that if they would've spent the majority of their shaving time learning how to shave properly and practicing that, perhaps they'd still be a wetshaver? Maybe. Maybe not. Just a thought. Each person is different.

But, SiBurning makes an excellent point in saying a newb does need good tools to learn on. Looking at it in this perspective I find much truth.

It's just things to think about...strike up conversation and relate your own experiences. Perhaps a "what you would've done or wanted differently as a new!?".

Hence the ponder in the title.
I think of it as driving or learning to play an instrument. Doubtful your first car was an S series Benz or your first chords were strummed out on a Les Paul (RIP).

More than anything, it tells me they suffered through a lot of bad shaves, their faces got used to it, and at this point could probably shave dry with a splinter off a 2x4. Disposable blades are a lot better than they were 15 years ago, but back then, those bic blades were just awful--full of burrs.


This part makes me think you've come to a point where you're able to make informed decisions for yourself. Not eveyone shares the same goals, though. A lot of people are happy with DFS or even SAS, and others enjoy trying out different products.

I basically agree with your main thoughts here, but am a little nervous about it giving newbies the wrong idea. It just doesn't seem like the best advice for newbies. They might get the idea that their $10 starter kit and lousy blades are great, and it's their fault they're not getting great results. It's not all about technique. Personally, I think newbies need good tools more than experienced shavers.

 

[rickboone1]

I hasten to add that he has a point about technique vs good hardware...there's a place for both. But any newbies (myself included) who do not pick up on that fact when VOLUMES have been rightly preached about it on half of all threads here...well, they're just too eager and/or not paying close enough attention.

Just for the record I'm not implying there's not enough information about anything. There's an abundance for sure.

 

[DonOhio]

Just for the record I'm not implying there's not enough information about anything. There's an abundance for sure.

I know you weren't; I myself have asked questions that, had I taken the time, I would have found addressed several times over in older threads. But the old timers here remain pretty patient with us just the same.

 

[rickboone1]

I know you weren't; I myself have asked questions that, had I taken the time, I would have found addressed several times over in older threads. But the old timers here remain pretty patient with us just the same.

This is very true. Even when we ask the same thing that has been asked a thousand times, the gentleman and ladies of this board spring forth and help. It is quite amazing. Another amazing thing on a side note is the power of PIF's. This is just incredible.

I look at shaving as truly an art. There are no right or wrong answers. What works for me may not for you. And, what worked for me today may not tomorrow. It is quite interesting to enjoy all the aspects of shaving. Interesting and enjoyable. From the zen-like state of mind to the learning and absorption of ideas and theories to the collecting of goods to the getting a new person started in the art. It is all very enjoyable and fun.
There are many here and other forums I will never be able to thank enough. I said the other day I've learned more in a few months than I knew in a lifetime.

 

[gone down south]

I agree with Rick a good deal, but I disagree that he's overly negative. If anything, he might be a little too enthusiastic about shaving. His exuberance for whatever he's just discovered might sometimes come across as crapping on other techniques/products, but I don't see any malice in it.

Anyways, back to the original question, I think most people outside of our little subculture are more than happy with their shaves. Disposables and cartridges make it next to impossible to irritate your skin, and if you're not prone to ingrown you might never realize that there's a better shave out there.

Despite all the poohpoohing on the board, mass market products are popular because they're simple and they work well enough. Last week, I was trying to decide if my shaves now are better than back in the Mach3 days, and I honestly can't remember. I never paid the slightest attention to my shave back then, it would be like asking about the quality of my toothbrushing!

I'll admit to having sampled a lot of products before finding what works best for me, I don't think anyone is suggesting doing otherwise. Where I do shake my head somewhat is when someone posts about how they've bought $500 of razors and brushes and cream within the first month (and then complain about the quality of their shaves!) That's about the only time I feel the boards do newbies a disservice.

 

[bill mcdill]

I like using quality shaving supplies. I like my tabac and other tallow-based soaps, quality badger brushes (none of which is over $50), and my vintage gillette shavers. Do I need to have these things to get a good shave, no, do I get a better shave with them, yes, does my technique probably need to improve, probably, can I afford to pamper myself, yes. I absolutely have huge respect for previous generations, but I do not think that they worked any harder for what they obtained than what I (and the people I know) worked to achieve. The principal difference is that we have more and higher quality things available to us. If you or your wife's grandfather knew the good stuff existed (or perhaps could afford it?) they would be all over it unless they are grumpy or some sort of Luddite. No amount of technique can make up for a quality lather generated with tabac and a quality badger brush. (Stepping off my soap box now)

 

[rickboone1]

I like using quality shaving supplies. I like my tabac and other tallow-based soaps, quality badger brushes (none of which is over $50), and my vintage gillette shavers. Do I need to have these things to get a good shave, non, do I get a better shave with them, yes, does my technique probably need to improve, probably, can I afford to pamper myself, yes. I absolutely have huge respect for previous generations, but I do not think that they worked any harder for what they obtained than what I (and the people I know) worked to achieve. The principal difference is that we have more and higher quality things available to us. If your or your wife's grandfather knew the good stuff existed (or perhaps could afford it?) they would be all over it. No amount of technique can make up for a quality lather generated with tabac and a quality badger brush. (Stepping off my soap box now)

You're right. We could get by or do quite well with other products. I don't need to drive a Mercedes nor do I need to wear a Tag Heuer watch. I'm no better a driver, nor do I tell time better. And my golf game damn sure isn't better with a more expensive club. We do things because we want to have that luxury. Nothing wrong with that.

I never intended for anyone to assume I'm putting down high end or expensive products.

Anyway, if they knew it existed...I'm sure they do/ did. High end products have been accessible for a long time. Perhaps they don't know. I am not sure. You have a point, they might would go for it. I do not know. You make good points in your post. Thanks for sharing. You're right you don't need these items, but they do help. You do enjoy them.

 

[Vinny Bobo]

Shaving and coffee are my ONLY "vices" and I will continue to indulge in them to the hilt. I guess I could be doing something more important like trying hit a small white ball with a club into a cup 275 yards away 18 times, but then what would I have to show for it? Nothing. And then I would have to shave anyway.

 

[masonjarjar]

My view is this.. getting the best "BBS" isn't the only goal of most guys here. Because if it was, they would find the one combination that gave them the absolute best shave and stick with it.

But, they switch between a dozen razors, several brushes, and enough soaps and creams to shave every man in Montana for years.

So that tells me it's at least as much about the experience as it is about the goal of getting the absolute best shave possible.

Variety is fun. For me, after literally using the same setup for over a decade, it is fun to try new scents and preps and aftershaves. Maybe one set up is the best, but the others are close enough that I like changing things up too.

 

[vitaman]

You're right. We could get by or do quite well with other products. I don't need to drive a Mercedes nor do I need to wear a Tag Heuer watch. I'm no better a driver, nor do I tell time better. And my golf game damn sure isn't better with a more expensive club. We do things because we want to have that luxury. Nothing wrong with that.

I never intended for anyone to assume I'm putting down high end or expensive products.

Anyway, if they knew it existed...I'm sure they do/ did. High end products have been accessible for a long time. Perhaps they don't know. I am not sure. You have a point, they might would go for it. I do not know. You make good points in your post. Thanks for sharing. You're right you don't need these items, but they do help. You do enjoy them.

Urinate on all the fancy stuff?

 

[rickboone1]

Urinate on all the fancy stuff?

Meaning....it doesn't make things better. I said I cannot hit a ball better with a better club, nor can I drive better down the highway nor can I tell time better. So, yes, while I do enjoy nice things in various aspects of my own life, including shaving, at the end of the day....

 

[strat1117]

Meaning....it doesn't make things better. I said I cannot hit a ball better with a better club, nor can I drive better down the highway nor can I tell time better. So, yes, while I do enjoy nice things in various aspects of my own life, including shaving, at the end of the day....

It's always the Indian, not the arrow. However, once the Indian knows how to work the arrow, a better arrow will help him maximize his talent. Yes, at some point, the fancier stuff just adds to the pleasure of the pleasure user. However, that neither makes it bad, nor does it give you the right to declare it pointless. Never confuse your opinion with fact. If you don't enjoy it or don't want to use it, fine. But do not dare to be so arrogant as to suggest it should be urinated upon just because you lack the sophistication or good taste to see the value in it.

 

[rickboone1]

It's always the Indian, not the arrow. However, once the Indian knows how to work the arrow, a better arrow will help him maximize his talent. Yes, at some point, the fancier stuff just adds to the pleasure of the pleasure user. However, that neither makes it bad, nor does it give you the right to declare it pointless. Never confuse your opinion with fact. If you don't enjoy it or don't want to use it, fine. But do not dare to be so arrogant as to suggest it should be urinated upon just because you lack the sophistication or good taste to see the value in it.

True, it does add to the pleasure. Nothing wrong with that. Never said it was.

There is not a lot of facts, per se in an art form. I look at this as an art form. That is my only opinion.

And if you do enjoy it, use it. Fine.

Not arrogant, just an expression. Talking primarily about my own self. Not taking away anything from anyone.

 

[strat1117]

True, it does add to the pleasure. Nothing wrong with that. Never said it was.

There is not a lot of facts, per se in an art form. I look at this as an art form. That is my only opinion.

And if you do enjoy it, use it. Fine.

Not arrogant, just an expression. Talking primarily about my own self. Not taking away anything from anyone.

Fair enough.

But I'm still keeping my eye on you.