Please help me select the best hones from here

[Baby Face]

I know, I know, I know, this has been discussed to death and back again, but please help one more time and I will make my decision based on the advice I get this time......... for sure I want to know what stone, stones or combination of stones that would make the best selection from this eBay source. I am talking about classic_razor or open_razor, who is the same guy. I understand this guy has a pretty good reputation on here from most of the members anyway. I want to ask if money was not an issue for this eBay site alone, (because money really is a BIG concern!! ) What stones or setup you folks would consider to be the best and optimum choice I could make from in there. I was thinking getting the three stone choice he has, which is a Chinese 12K, a 5000, and an 8000 grit stone all in the same auction, and then add to that a yellow Belgian Coticule and I was going to get him to throw in an adjustable stone holder to place them in while I was using whichever stone so it didn’t slide. I was also going to select the auctions that provided the slurry stone with each one or get a slurry stone as another purchase if there isn’t one included. Is this all a good selection or is it over kill, or the other extreme and not enough, or just completely the wrong way to go all together. I would really appreciate any advice I could get from those of you who are in the know. I have researched as best I could about these stone choices and have been just about to make my decision and purchase and saw some new or opposing information and ran scared because the choices are so expensive that even small mistakes can mean a lot to me because I’m concerned I will be left with an expensive and bad choice which is only half the problem because now I won’t have any money left to make the now understood to be correct choice to fix my mistake. Thanks for taking the time to read this and for those of you that are willing and able to help me get through this.

I should add here that I already have an SRP strop as well as a two sided balsa strop I made and have Hand America brand Chromium oxide on one side and Hand America brand.025 diamond slurry on the opposite side to use with this setup. I have both of my razors sent out to be honed as I am typing this, so I will be starting out with two brand new edges and have some time to get the needed stones together before I actually need them so I'm hopefully not having to make too quick of a decision based on immediate need.

L8R, Baby Face

 

[leighton]

Just buy the coticule.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I'd agree with that. The China has not impressed me with it's finish. I find my Coti finish is better (and faster). It's a decent bottom line intro finisher, but if you are springing for a coti anyway, it'll collect dust. I'd say get the 5k so you can jump right to finishing on the coti rather than working your way up from a thick slurry, but these particular stones require a ton of soaking anyway, so just using the coti would be faster in that case too.


TLDR: Just get the coti.

 

[chess1]

if you have money issue just take norton 4/8k.gl

 

[English]

If you read the reviews section under hones, you will find a review of the Chinese 12K.

It's an inexpensive hone that is relatively slow but puts a buttery edge on a razor.

It is the best value finishing hone on the market bar none. I know one professional honer that uses one as a final finisher and his edges are superb by any standards.

Don't let price fool you. It's certainly as good as a coticule and for a somebody new to honing, it's an easier road to sharpness than a coticule.

Don't get me wrong, I like the coticule, they are great hones but they are relatively expensive. Hones the size of the Chinese 12k are very expensive.

The Norton 4/8K is not a finishing hone and not many shave directly off them.

 

[Baby Face]

Very many thanks to you all for your very valuable advice and input. I am a lot less confused about all this mystery since I found this place and you folks, that's for sure. As I said, I will have two razors in short time with professional edges to them so I won't be under any time pressures to get soemthing and I can take some time to get as good a deal as I can dig up and I plan to take advantage of that time to try to save myself some money.

Thanks, Baby Face

 

[Chimensch]

If you read the reviews section under hones, you will find a review of the Chinese 12K.

It's an inexpensive hone that is relatively slow but puts a buttery edge on a razor.

It is the best value finishing hone on the market bar none. I know one professional honer that uses one as a final finisher and his edges are superb by any standards.

Don't let price fool you. It's certainly as good as a coticule and for a somebody new to honing, it's an easier road to sharpness than a coticule.

Don't get me wrong, I like the coticule, they are great hones but they are relatively expensive. Hones the size of the Chinese 12k are very expensive.

The Norton 4/8K is not a finishing hone and not many shave directly off them.

I have to disagree with you here, English. The Chinese hone that I got was very hard. I don't have a diamond plate and had to lap it on wet/dry abrasive paper. After 4 or 5 hours of backbreaking work it was still not 100% flat. Just the time spent working on it has made this the most expensive hone I own. Plus honing with it is very slow. For a new shaver, the Chinese hone is just a recipe for frustration.

I'm with Leighton ... just buy a coticule.

 

[chess1]

The Norton 4/8K is not a finishing hone and not many shave directly off them.

Sorry to say English i am respectfully disagree in 2 ideas of yours in above statement.
1 If Person knows how to use Norton he doesn't need second stone ever. Your edge off 8k is more then enough to get comfortable shave.
Person has to know how to hone.
2. If someone doesn't know to use norton he would have very hard time to get any result from chinese 12 k and you have to get blade to chinese 12k level first. I don't think you can sharpen blade using 12 along.
gl

 

[English]

Gentlemen,

No problems here.

The 12K is now available on UK interent from a Polish seller and he does all the hard work for you.

Check it out.........

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Chinese-W...lectables_LE?hash=item1e574da03c#ht_500wt_956

He also does a package with an 8K anf a 5K and they are a great set.

Mr average can not get a good shave off a Norton and I think you know that.

I can get a shaving edge off a coticule and I love the hones but it took time to learn how to use it.

The Chinese hone just requires repetition. That is why I recommend them as good for beginners and good value for money.

If guys want they can develop on to a coticle. Nortons however in my mind have been superseded by better, less fussy Japanese combination stones.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I certainly wouldn't recommend using an 8k synth as a touch up hone. There's no need to go that rough.

English, the first time I ever sharpened a razor on a coticule was on a 40mmx40mm. I used a circular pattern that was a blind attempt at finding something that would work on that size stone. I spritzed the hone with water and anytime it started to slurry I hit it again and shoved the slurry off. You can see the pattern at work if you scope the edge. It looks a mess. It's a great edge. The only one's I have that compete with it are my top three stones, all 14k+ grit. Around the same time I bought the China stone. I've spent even more time on it (though less than I do on most stones) and haven't managed to get an edge I'm happy with yet. (It seems to be a peer of synthetic barber hones rather than the high price natural stones that I use as finishers these days.) At least in my experience, the coticule is if anything much easier to use as a finisher. Now I'm sure it takes a lot more practice to effectively use it in the bevel to finish methods (which I haven't attempted yet). But I find that it certainly makes a China Nat obsolete upon purchase.

I agree china nat is a good value for the money, and for that reason a good purchase for beginners. The ONLY alternative in that price range are barber hones that are half it's size and often damaged. But if price isn't in the equation and someone says what's the better stone (for anyone, beginner included), I'm going with the coticule.

 

[Chimensch]

Now I'm sure it takes a lot more practice to effectively use it in the bevel to finish methods (which I haven't attempted yet). But I find that it certainly makes a China Nat obsolete upon purchase.

I agree china nat is a good value for the money, and for that reason a good purchase for beginners. The ONLY alternative in that price range are barber hones that are half it's size and often damaged. But if price isn't in the equation and someone says what's the better stone (for anyone, beginner included), I'm going with the coticule.

Bart's bevel-setting technique is easy to do and works really well. I agree with everything you've said about the coticule.

 

[richmondesi]

The main reason that I don't recommend Coticules or Chinese 12Ks to new honers is because of that repetition that you are talking about, Peter. With a new guy without a good developed honing stroke, asking them to do a whole lot of strokes to get that finished edge is asking a lot IMHO. However, on a Norton 8K, you can get there faster. True, the average Joe will have a little trouble getting a great edge off of an 8K, but that's not because it's that hard. All you have to do is hone through your normal progression like normal, then use your finger to wipe off the excess water. Finally, do about 15 slow, deliberate, even, light X strokes while the stone dries... It takes a good touch, but it's not as difficult IMHO as asking someone to do 100 quality strokes on a Chinese 12k or Coticule.

For the record, my favorite edge is off the Coticule, but I can do a couple hundred strokes on it in a short enough amount of time that it's not a problem for me. I wouldn't feel that I can say the same for a new guy, though.

Additionally, I feel that trying to learn to hone on a Coticule COULD potentially lead to a significant amount of frustration. It seems easier to me to just learn the strokes on a synthetic and graduate to a Coticule... Again, just my opinion

 

[Chimensch]

Additionally, I feel that trying to learn to hone on a Coticule COULD potentially lead to a significant amount of frustration. It seems easier to me to just learn the strokes on a synthetic and graduate to a Coticule... Again, just my opinion

I experienced way more frustration from the Norton 4K/8K:

I lapped it on abrasive paper and got grit from the paper embedded in the surface. So I had to buy a flattening stone. Then you have to soak before use. Then you have to lap it much more frequently than a coticule. Plus, it's heavy and awkward to hold in your hand. Plus, at 3" wide, its very difficult to hone warped or smiling blades, etc., etc.

A lot of my criticisms of the Norton are valid for any synthetic hone.

My recommendation for a new shaver would be a barbers hone or a narrow coticule.

 

[richmondesi]

I experienced way more frustration from the Norton 4K/8K:

I lapped it on abrasive paper and got grit from the paper embedded in the surface. So I had to buy a flattening stone. Then you have to soak before use. Then you have to lap it much more frequently than a coticule. Plus, it's heavy and awkward to hold in your hand. Plus, at 3" wide, its very difficult to hone warped or smiling blades, etc., etc.

A lot of my criticisms of the Norton are valid for any synthetic hone.

My recommendation for a new shaver would be a barbers hone or a narrow coticule.

I'd personally rather deal with those negatives than trying to figure out how to work the slurry, and duplicate a couple hundred good strokes as a beginner, but that's just me

 

[SliceOfLife]

That's the one complaint I have about all my lower grit Synths... The soaking. Luckily my Bear 4k doesn't need it, a few spritzes and she's good to go. But my other "midrange" stones (3 and 5k) do. I've started using my arkansas oilstones instead just because I don't feel like waiting an hour when I want to hone.


Ok I wrote like 2 pages of response and deleted it because it was rambling and didn't even make sense to me.


I'll sum up what it said.


1. For a touch up/learning hone. I find handheld barber's by far the easiest to use. However I can see the advantage of learning on a good sized bench stone. That said, a $90 Norton is not necessary for that. I find my 4k king Icebear to be a very solid stone that I'd put up against a 8k Norton any day.

2. Finding a cheap alternative for a 4k Norton without exacerbating the synth whetstone drawbacks hasn't proven easy. So if he wants a set of synths like Open_Razors 5/8k's the Norton 4/8k combo stone wouldn't be a bad investment.

3. I really don't find the coticule even the slightest challenge to hone on. It's probably the most like a synth of any of my natural stones. I wasn't kidding. Water + move razor = good edge. I'm nothing special, so I don't see it as being a problem even for a beginner. The only issue is size.

4. On size. Yes, as a beginner I wanted 8x3 and nothing else. Now the ONLY stones I want 8x3 are my bevel setters. I prefer <2" wide (less than) for my refining stones. So it's at best a mixed bag. Brings us back to 1. I see the use of having a 8x3 bench stone, but I don't see the need to spend the bulk of your money on it.

If he has the money, Norton 4/8k and the coti would be a great set. If he can't swing that, I'd go for the Icebear 4k and coti and just spend more time on the Bear until I could afford to grab a Norton 4k, Naniwa 3k, etc.

The Taidea stones (like the ones open razor sells) work fine, but the soaking is starting to REALLY get on my nerves. Generally, I feel you're a lot more likely to get a bad impression of synth whetstones if you start with these. (I want to repeat though, that the edge they give is just fine... it's just that they literally require hours of soaking, and they're smaller (depth) than Norton/King, so you don't save much money in the end over Norton and they are more expensive (cost vs life) than King by a significant amount.

Norton 4/8k is what, $90? The Taidea stones are each probably about the size of one side of it. They come to $60 shipped. I don't consider them worth 2/3 of what a Norton 4/8 is for sure.


Edit: Woodcraft has 4/8k Norton for $79 w/ free ship... so yeah. If you're buying the 5/8k taidea's just spend the extra $19 on the Norton.

 

[richmondesi]

Coticules aren't "hard" to use, but they take significantly more laps to get a great edge on than the alternatives we are discussing. It's not about them being difficult, it's that it's more difficult for new honers to make hundreds of good laps than it is to make dozens of good laps.

 

[Baby Face]

This sure is a lot of information to digest. I didn't mean to suggest that money wasn't an issue, I just meant that "if" it wasn't then what would be the choices from that auction. I should have asked to be more accurate if any of these was really a good choice to make regardless of cost. What I'm really trying to figure out is what do I need to make the time between my prfessional honings fewer and longer in between each one. I do have a two sided balsa strop with Crox on one side and 0.025 diamond slurry spray on the other and a leather strop from SRP. I do want to learn this art eventually,but I want to try to make the best purchases possible so I can keep the items I bought and get my tecnique better with them rather than throw them away and buy better the next time as I learn to hone better.

Thanks, Baby Face

 

[Bart]

I think you need to stop worrying about two things:

1. which hone gives the best edge? No one can tell, because it depends largely on your skin, your personal shaving style, your beard, and your personal preferences. The only thing that matters is whether the discussed hones are capable of delivering a keen enough edge. The Norton 4k/8k, the Naniwa5k/8K work just fine, among synthetic hones. On the naturals' side, a Coticule does the job and so will a Japanese natural. The Chinese hone is certainly capable of delivering a good edge, but I lack the experience with it to tell if it is capable to reclaim a truly dull razor.

2. Which hone holds the easiest learning curve? Again, this is impossible to predict. Some guys struggle for months before they get an edge on a razor, others catch on with it almost instantly.

Many guys seem to think the edge is in the hone, while I believe that to be only a very partial truth. The edge is as much in the hands of the one who does the sharpening and that same statement can be made for the steel of the razor as well.

With those 2 questions out of the way, let's focus on what I believe to be the only one that really matters:
Why did you decide to shave with a straight razor?
It seems unlikely to me that a straight razor offers a better shave than any other shaving tool. To many of us, including myself, it may appear that way, because the straight shaving routine invited us to optimize all other shaving parameters. I'm talking primarily beard prep. But a DE will provide an equally nice shave, when performed with similar attentiveness. I think even a cartridge holds that promise.
So, why a straight razor? Romance? Nostalgia? The challenge of learning a skill? Masculinity? Were you fed up with the 2, 3, 4, and now 5 blades marketing dictation? Ecological motives? Were you drawn to the collectibility of straight razors? Their beauty?

Answer these questions, and you're halfway figuring out which hone(s) will fit your bill.

I personally hate the 2-3-4-5 blades logic, so I'm not inclined to use a 5 hones in a row setup to sharpen a razor, how nice the edges may be. I prefer tools with wooden handles. I go all bananas when my wife threatens to throw away my 25 year old worn-out pullover. In other words, I'm a Coticule guy.

The mere fact that you are dedicating a thread on an Internet forum to your question, indicates that you might turn your honing efforts into a long journey, and are bound to try them all. If that's true, it might be worth your while to buy the Naniwa 5k and 8k or the Shaptons 4k and 8k. Both of these setups can be expanded to higher grits at a later stage or you can follow them with the purchase of a natural hone, that can be used to (re)finish the edges of your synthetic progression. Or you can venture into the many options for abrasive compounds and stropping surfaces.

Just go with what appeals most to you and stick with it till you can manage to get excellent edges.

Kind regards,
Bart.

 

[richmondesi]

I think that Bart makes some excellent points, as usual .

Except!... Coticules do leave the best edges

Of course, that's a personal preference thing

 

[Chimensch]

I think that Bart makes some excellent points, as usual .

Except!... Coticules do leave the best edges

Of course, that's a personal preference thing

+1

If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, use a coti to sharpen your knife,
It's my personal point of view that a coticule will do for you!