omote/ura confusion (not a beginner question)

[Tierdaen]

So I've been curious for a while. I see it stated in a number of English (pretty much all from these fora and Jim Rion's blog) and a few Japanese (mostly Takami and the like) sources that the omote (&#34920 side is the side with softer clad steel/iron and the ura (&#35023 is the side with the stamps. I also read the same sources saying that the omote is honed with greater frequency than the ura.

However, the guideline of 「裏15回、表3回」 that one finds in the instructions that come with a Henkotsu razor is also commonly mentioned, as are a few other ratios. Are they defining ura oddly or are they drunk or is there some disagreement about this?

I haven't seen anything authoritative about this, so if anyone knows where this apparent confusion comes from, it could be useful.

 

[Seraphim]

Are the directions saying to hone the 裏 side? Or perhaps is it saying to hone with that side up, visible while honing? There is perhaps a different way of describing how it is honed in the directions that may not be obvious to a non-native speaker? Maybe that is what leads to confusion?

 

[Tierdaen]

Are the directions saying to hone the 裏 side? Or perhaps is it saying to hone with that side up, visible while honing? There is perhaps a different way of describing how it is honed in the directions that may not be obvious to a non-native speaker? Maybe that is what leads to confusion?

Doesn't specify facing up or down, and I haven't found a native Japanese source online or offline that can make the distinction reliably. Some have treated the omote side as the side with stamps and some have treated it as the side with the iron cladding. I thought about the issue of "side-up/side-down" too, but I seem to get shrugs from native speakers rather than anything usefully conclusive.

Best I get is from other folks in Japanese swordsmanship who tend to define omote the way the English sources do.

 

[Seraphim]

I work for a Japanese company, so I know first hand the fact that the way Japanese look at things, and Westerners look at things are often 180 degrees opposite, even though upon explanation, both make perfect sense.

As an example: for us in the US, when a laser system is operating, there will be a flashing red light letting people know that the system is on,and thus caution is required.
The Japanese way is to have a green light on, because the system is functioning. It is "on", it is "going", so they have the green light on.

As far as Kami honing. I am no expert by far. I have honed up a few, and in reality the way I did it didn't really matter much at all.

 

[Tierdaen]

I work for a Japanese company, so I know first hand the fact that the way Japanese look at things, and Westerners look at things are often 180 degrees opposite, even though upon explanation, both make perfect sense.

As an example: for us in the US, when a laser system is operating, there will be a flashing red light letting people know that the system is on,and thus caution is required.
The Japanese way is to have a green light on, because the system is functioning. It is "on", it is "going", so they have the green light on.

As far as Kami honing. I am no expert by far. I have honed up a few, and in reality the way I did it didn't really matter much at all.

I am no stranger to East-West stereotypes or even traditional Japanese practices in a lot of things, and I live in Taiwan which is prone to very similar issues. More interested in the actual reasoning or initial usage of omote/ura as it applies to tool and weapon sharpening and polishing, rather than "they think different than we do". I'm pretty capable of reading more traditional works that include what modern Japanese complain as too "archaic" language use, but such texts are generally not available online.

 

[Tierdaen]

Might be answering my own question...dug out my Henkotsu insert.

「ウラ押十五回オモテ三回」
neglected a handy word "push" in 押.

http://www.geocities.jp/sumato_web/kamisori.html can be a bit confusing but the descriptions seem to have undergone correction, and it seems that pushing on one side is used in descriptions. Clears it up some for me. Perhaps I should check my memory and search a bit more before asking...haha.

 

[mikeadams]

As you stated, the omote is the flat, soft iron side, and the ura is the hard steel bevel side with the maker's stamp. As others have mentioned, what western generally thinks of one way is different for the east. At least for me in this instance it is. The ura to me, I would consider the front, but it is actually the back. I've read a few translations for honing and I've read in the same translation where they state placing a certain side down and in the next sentence say press on that same side, with the implication that, that side is now "up". I have a pdf doc that is translation of Kousuke Iwasaki discussing honing, and I will send you that if you like. Whoops, just realized the pdf I have is the one translated by Jim Rion, which I presume you already have.

As for ratios, I've seen several different ones, but often see 7/3, which is what I generally use.

Steve

 

[ouch]

Nobody uses the words left or right any more.

 

[mainaman]

Omote- face of the razor, no stamps, hollow ground
Ura- back of the razor , has kanji, also hollow ground.
Ura is the hollowed back side of traditional knives, chisels and planes, it is pretty standard tern that means the hollowed back of a tool. It just so happens that Kamisori are hollowed on the face as well.

 

[mainaman]

As you stated, the omote is the flat, soft iron side, and the ura is the hard steel bevel side with the maker's stamp. As others have mentioned, what western generally thinks of one way is different for the east. At least for me in this instance it is. The ura to me, I would consider the front, but it is actually the back. I've read a few translations for honing and I've read in the same translation where they state placing a certain side down and in the next sentence say press on that same side, with the implication that, that side is now "up". I have a pdf doc that is translation of Kousuke Iwasaki discussing honing, and I will send you that if you like. Whoops, just realized the pdf I have is the one translated by Jim Rion, which I presume you already have.

As for ratios, I've seen several different ones, but often see 7/3, which is what I generally use.

Steve

Here a demonstration by Mizouchi san on honing kamisori, straight from the source, forget the book it is very old.

 

[Kentos]

The book is old, but so are kamisori

 

[mainaman]

The book is old, but so are kamisori

True, but if the guy that makes the Iwasaki razors does it this way then it probably works.
By the way the old lady in the video is talking about natural stones too, not sure if she is Iwaski's wife or Mizouchi's wife.

 

[Kentos]

True, but if the guy that makes the Iwasaki razors does it this way then it probably works.
By the way the old lady in the video is talking about natural stones too, not sure if she is Iwaski's wife or Mizouchi's wife.

Aye I'm not saying either way works or doesn't, heck I sprayed my Jnat with diamond spray. My opinion is just that all ideas should be considered, old and new.

 

[Gamma]

There are two types of fools.

One fool says "this thing is old so it must be very good"
The other fool says - "this thing is new so it must be better"


Just wondering - what happens if you hone a Kami in reverse - with emphasis on the Ura?

Does the world stop spinning on its axis or something?

I have an old Kami and I'm not going to start messing with it, and if I had a new cheapo one I'd experiment with that.
Not that there are cheapo Kamis around - just thinking out loud here.


It's just that - to me anyway - it seems to be a logical way to save the Omote from heavy wear.

I'm so sure there's some kind of reasoning for focusing on the Omote - I just don't see it in the blade's geometry.

 

[Kentos]

Typing aloud here too...

An analogy would be like trying to hone out a chip from a chisel and concentrating the strokes on the back side. It could be done but you would have a thinner chisel. In the context of the kamisori the actual metal that makes up the cutting edge isn't that thick. I am guessing not much more than a 1/16th of an inch. You would also get to the point where the hard steel would be under the softer steel on the omote and you would never be able to work a bevel into the hard steel on that side.

A modern kamisori made of one steel ve laminated wouldn't have those problems.

 

[Woodash]

Aye I'm not saying either way works or doesn't, heck I sprayed my Jnat with diamond spray. My opinion is just that all ideas should be considered, old and new.

I would sooner put ketchup on a pastrami sandwich!!

 

[Kentos]

I would sooner put ketchup on a pastrami sandwich!!

Don't knock it til ya tried it!

I would also say we use Obverse for Omote and Reverse for Ura.