Ok, let's see how many members can make a quality soap today.

[alex2363]

I'm interested in following this adventure, but I won't actually be making any soap. Like all creative projects it will require making a lot of bad soap and learning along the way. I'm too old to be looking for another hobby to do badly.

Kieth, your never too old.

 

[alex2363]

So, it turns out that the suspicious burning I had felt was not from the soap. Not sure where it came from, perhaps a minute amount of lye fell into my gloves? If so, any advice on how to clean that? I'm thinking that soaking it in diluted white vinegar will do the trick, but am curious if there are better ways to do this.

At any rate, I just shaved with my soap this morning (about 36 hours after I made it). The zap test seems to have gotten it right: saponification was done, as far as I can tell. I figured the soap would have too much water, since it had very little time to cure, but I reasoned that for a shaving soap, and especially for a newbie wet shaver like me, this may be an advantage. After all, it makes loading the brush a lot easier!

I'm going to declare this first attempt a qualified success! It lathered very easily, and the lather lasted 2 passes, until I ran out and had to make some more for the 3rd pass. I have this problem with the Kell's Original soap as well, so there's a very good chance it's an operator error. I need to load more soap and work it in the bowl a bit longer, I think.

The recipe I used consisted of Stearic Acid, Coconut oil, Castor oil, and Olive oil, using both KOH and NaOH as lyes, and adding some Glycerin and Oak Moss fragrance oil. The lyecalc widget predicted a soap low in conditioning, but my face doesn't feel dry after shaving (though perhaps the Arko aftershave is compensating for that). Next batch I'll change the proportions of the oils a bit, and up the added Glycerin, and see if I can make it more conditioning and equally (if not more) lather-friendly.

The Oak Moss fragrance oil smells like a mass produced soap would. Think Irish Spring, or something like that. Next time I plan on making one with Eucalyptus and another with only my homemade tobacco extracts for fragrance.

For what its worth, I made a 100 gram (oil weight) batch, and that just about filled a small Pyrex bowl I bought at a local Goodwill store. It's not quite this bowl, but very similar.

If there's any interest, I can post a photo of this first soap attempt.

Any pics of the finished product?

 

[jzuzphreek]

For the purposes of soap making, are there essential oils (brands) that are better than others? If you talk to the essential oil crowd, each will testify to the supremacy of each person's personal favorite (I'm looking at YOU Multi Level Marketing Companies). But is there any reason any oil used strictly for fragrance in a soap would have to be of a certain quality? Could I just go in to Whole Foods and pick my favorite scents for a soap-making experiment?

 

[JBLA]

For the purposes of soap making, are there essential oils (brands) that are better than others? If you talk to the essential oil crowd, each will testify to the supremacy of each person's personal favorite (I'm looking at YOU Multi Level Marketing Companies). But is there any reason any oil used strictly for fragrance in a soap would have to be of a certain quality? Could I just go in to Whole Foods and pick my favorite scents for a soap-making experiment?

You could certainly start with Whole Foods, as most of their products are fairly high quality, but if you become enthusiastic about it, you will rapidly notice that the bulk suppliers of essential oils make things far more economical, as when you're using 3-4 oz. or so of essential oils per batch, spending $10-$30 for a 15ml (1/2 oz. approx) vial of essential oil can get pretty costly pretty quickly.

 

[Effy]

Aye, what there is in an essential oil that might survive the lye is a debatable point, so paying through the nose for 'healing' quality is not really worth it for soap making. Of course, poor quality ones, mixed with all sorts of rubbish should also be avoided

 

[pantoporos aporos]

Any pics of the finished product?

Here are a couple from this morning:





Sorry again for the low quality cell phone / tablet photos. At any rate, I had a very comfortable shave with it!

 

[eyebright]

You could certainly start with Whole Foods, as most of their products are fairly high quality, but if you become enthusiastic about it, you will rapidly notice that the bulk suppliers of essential oils make things far more economical, as when you're using 3-4 oz. or so of essential oils per batch, spending $10-$30 for a 15ml (1/2 oz. approx) vial of essential oil can get pretty costly pretty quickly.

+1 Keep in mind as well that not all essential oils can be used interchangeably for fragrance. You should do your research on which oils are potential sensitizers and know what safe usage levels are.

 

[alex2363]

Here are a couple from this morning:

View attachment 575065

View attachment 575066

Sorry again for the low quality cell phone / tablet photos. At any rate, I had a very comfortable shave with it!

The middle one looks creamier. .. is it the same batch?

 

[pantoporos aporos]

The middle one looks creamier. .. is it the same batch?

Actually it's the same soap! The top picture was taken after making lather, and the lower one after cleaning up post shave.

It's a hard soap, probably due to the high percentages of stearic acid and coconut oil, as well as the NaOH (I split the lye roughly 50\50). I might try to make a creamier soap next time...

 

[LBussy]

[Licking soap] sounds very risky, even downright unhealthy.

I've found out this is one of those subjects that always leads to a rousing debate on soap forums. The zap test is not dangerous or unhealthy. pH tests are notoriously unreliable, however as John does it he is comparing this batch to his last batch and as a means of assuring consistency it can be a good thing.

Here's why pH is unreliable: pH is a measure of relative acidity or alkalinity. It's on a scale from 0-14 where 7 is "neutral" (tap water). Finished soap (not detergent) is alkaline. It may be between 9 and 11 on the pH scale (there are undoubtedly a few outliers) and be done, complete, safe and even soap nirvana. How can this be? Well there's pH and there's free alkalinity or titratable alkalinity. The first is a measure of state, the second is a measure of potential. A soap is a very highly buffered colloidal substance, it's alkaline but has little titratable alkalinity (low potential). That means it doesn't have the power to make anything else alkaline, nor to burn your skin.

Analogies that might help: A mosquito can move at 1.5 MPH. If it hits you, you will not even feel it. Would you sit in front of a train moving 1.5 MPH? Speed is the "pH" and the mass is the "alkalinity."

You often hear of "pH balanced" soaps. They are not soaps if they are neutral. Some of you are going to go search the Internet and look for "pH soap" and find lots of very convincing people tell you that their soap is neutralized to pH 7 with citric acid or other such additives, and they test it with a pH strip to be sure. As John mentioned, pH is not straightforward to check and they are probably doing it wrong. If you take soap and acidify it till the pH is neutral, you will no longer have soap. You will have a nasty liquid and a nasty gloppy slimy mess floating on top but it ain't soap.

There's a very well respected professor (PhD-chemist type) who has written what many consider to be the definitive resource for soap science for the layperson. He has always stated that making a soap pH 7 is impossible, but he has made a challenge and staked his reputation on it (and that's pretty important to those doctor-types). To date nobody has even sent him a sample (last time I checked anyway). You can find lots of blogs where they say things like "well there's no sense in sending it to him because his mind is made up." I trust the work of an academic over that of some crazy person in the outback who tries to tell me their soap will cure cancer.

So back to testing. If your pH is 10, is it done? There's no way of telling. You can titrate the soap in solution to determine the level of residual alkalinity if you want a lab test. I've done it myself. It's a major PIA. Or you can do the zap test. Done properly it is not dangerous. Most people don't lick a bar of unknown soap, they wet their finger, rub it across the soap, and then touch their finger to their tounge. Soap that's "done" tastes like nothing. Soap that has residual alkalinity does a strange thing: You know how batteries say they are "alkaline?" Well when your soap is not ready it creates a tiny electrical charge on your tongue and feels like you stuck a 9-volt battery on it. That's why it's called the "zap test." No zap = no free (titratable) alkalinity to a very precise level.

I know for a solid, 100%, they told me so FACT that some (most? all?) of the most beloved artisanal soap makers rely on this test. I would not use soap from a person who tried to tell me the zap test was unreliable. When invariably a new person joins a soapmaking community and they make a statement like the one above (not picking on you, you just don't know), people quietly sigh, maybe roll their eyes, and try to explain what I just explained.

So it is not risky, unhealthy, or unreliable. It's how you make soap.

 

[alex2363]

I've found out this is one of those subjects that always leads to a rousing debate on soap forums. The zap test is not dangerous or unhealthy. pH tests are notoriously unreliable, however as John does it he is comparing this batch to his last batch and as a means of assuring consistency it can be a good thing.

Here's why pH is unreliable: pH is a measure of relative acidity or alkalinity. It's on a scale from 0-14 where 7 is "neutral" (tap water). Finished soap (not detergent) is alkaline. It may be between 9 and 11 on the pH scale (there are undoubtedly a few outliers) and be done, complete, safe and even soap nirvana. How can this be? Well there's pH and there's free alkalinity or titratable alkalinity. The first is a measure of state, the second is a measure of potential. A soap is a very highly buffered colloidal substance, it's alkaline but has little titratable alkalinity (low potential). That means it doesn't have the power to make anything else alkaline, nor to burn your skin.

Analogies that might help: A mosquito can move at 1.5 MPH. If it hits you, you will not even feel it. Would you sit in front of a train moving 1.5 MPH? Speed is the "pH" and the mass is the "alkalinity."

You often hear of "pH balanced" soaps. They are not soaps if they are neutral. Some of you are going to go search the Internet and look for "pH soap" and find lots of very convincing people tell you that their soap is neutralized to pH 7 with citric acid or other such additives, and they test it with a pH strip to be sure. As John mentioned, pH is not straightforward to check and they are probably doing it wrong. If you take soap and acidify it till the pH is neutral, you will no longer have soap. You will have a nasty liquid and a nasty gloppy slimy mess floating on top but it ain't soap.

There's a very well respected professor (PhD-chemist type) who has written what many consider to be the definitive resource for soap science for the layperson. He has always stated that making a soap pH 7 is impossible, but he has made a challenge and staked his reputation on it (and that's pretty important to those doctor-types). To date nobody has even sent him a sample (last time I checked anyway). You can find lots of blogs where they say things like "well there's no sense in sending it to him because his mind is made up." I trust the work of an academic over that of some crazy person in the outback who tries to tell me their soap will cure cancer.

So back to testing. If your pH is 10, is it done? There's no way of telling. You can titrate the soap in solution to determine the level of residual alkalinity if you want a lab test. I've done it myself. It's a major PIA. Or you can do the zap test. Done properly it is not dangerous. Most people don't lick a bar of unknown soap, they wet their finger, rub it across the soap, and then touch their finger to their tounge. Soap that's "done" tastes like nothing. Soap that has residual alkalinity does a strange thing: You know how batteries say they are "alkaline?" Well when your soap is not ready it creates a tiny electrical charge on your tongue and feels like you stuck a 9-volt battery on it. That's why it's called the "zap test." No zap = no free (titratable) alkalinity to a very precise level.

I know for a solid, 100%, they told me so FACT that some (most? all?) of the most beloved artisanal soap makers rely on this test. I would not use soap from a person who tried to tell me the zap test was unreliable. When invariably a new person joins a soapmaking community and they make a statement like the one above (not picking on you, you just don't know), people quietly sigh, maybe roll their eyes, and try to explain what I just explained.

So it is not risky, unhealthy, or unreliable. It's how you make soap.

why call it a zap test.

 

[Effy]

Because it gives you a feeling like a very mild electric shock - as if you put a 9-volt battery on your tongue. It does no damage, but you know it's there!

 

[alex2363]

Because it gives you a feeling like a very mild electric shock - as if you put a 9-volt battery on your tongue. It does no damage, but you know it's there!

This just gets weirder

 

[Effy]

This just gets weirder

I have to say, you started out asking about how many people make their soap, then people asked about certain topics (such as zap testing) and then some very experienced soapers explained that zap testing is safe and actually the norm in soap making (the majority of craft soap makers will either zap test or nothing, based on the situation).

I find your attitude toward the experience of soapers to be somewhat disrespectful bordering on outright trolling.

If you aren't familiar with something it can indeed seem strange to you - as we know when we explain traditional wet shaving to some people - so it is often best to defer to the experience of others rather than argue with them from a standpoint lacking experience.

 

[JBLA]

FWIW, personal testing between the "zap test" and "pH testing" has shown the pH test to be more reliable and consistent. I'd rather tell someone using my soap that I've pH tested each test than telling them I've licked each batch and they didn't zap.

As with everything else, YMMV.

 

[Effy]

FWIW, personal testing between the "zap test" and "pH testing" has shown the pH test to be more reliable and consistent. I'd rather tell someone using my soap that I've pH tested each test than telling them I've licked each batch and they didn't zap.

As with everything else, YMMV.

But the pH test alone does not tell you if your soap is safe to use. People test (assuming they test accurately with a 1% solution, which is a bold assumption for most people who instead stick a pH strip on a wet soap!) and you get a pH number...............which might be okay or it might not be. Until people benchmark the pH of their recipe in some way and can consistently reproduce that recipe, the pH is a meaningless number, other than telling them what the pH is.

Now, you yourself know that when your recipe 'A' has a pH of 'x', that it is good to go to cure - because you have made that benchmark by testing the pH and then using the soap.

While telling people that they have been pH tested is one thing, if someone was to actually ask what the pH was, they might well think it would be unsafe - lye-based soaps can be up to and beyond pH 12 and still be perfectly safe and enjoyable to use. Another reason why the pH addiction can be misleading.

 

[LBussy]

FWIW, personal testing between the "zap test" and "pH testing" has shown the pH test to be more reliable and consistent.

I assume (for the same reasons Craig said) that this is true after you "know" the recipe? Because otherwise pH is sort of meaningless. Now a titration will always be definitive of course.

I'd rather tell someone using my soap that I've pH tested each test than telling them I've licked each batch and they didn't zap.

I think the literary license you've applied here may give people who don't understand an incorrect view of the process. For those that don't know - the "polite" method is to wet one's finger with water, touch/rub the soap a tiny bit, then touch the finger to the tongue. One would do this (assuming bars of soap) on the end slice, and then maybe one or two from the middle.

John for the majority (vast majority obviously) of your customers I can see why you would rather tell them it was pH tested. A year and a half ago I would probably have been more comforted by it. Since I am not in commerce I need not worry about the marketing implications of my process - only that I like my soap.

 

[ashcampbell]

Good read guys. Thanks.

 

[Endless Purple]

Good thread. I have found it fascinating even though I have not tried my hand at soaps yet. If I can work out the fragrance issues with my aftershave, I expect this will be next.

 

[captp]

I have to say, you started out asking about how many people make their soap, then people asked about certain topics (such as zap testing) and then some very experienced soapers explained that zap testing is safe and actually the norm in soap making (the majority of craft soap makers will either zap test or nothing, based on the situation).

I find your attitude toward the experience of soapers to be somewhat disrespectful bordering on outright trolling.

If you aren't familiar with something it can indeed seem strange to you - as we know when we explain traditional wet shaving to some people - so it is often best to defer to the experience of others rather than argue with them from a standpoint lacking experience.

Why do you find his comment disrespectful or trolling? It was a simple humorous comment