Need advice on acquiring a used Arkansas translucent

[J Carroll]

I only recently took up straight razor shaving. My current goal is to get through a three pass shave without a nick.

But while learning to shave, I've also been looking into honing. I ordered a DMT coarse/extra coarse to use as a lapping stone for Naniwa hones in a series including 1K, 5K, 8K, and 12K. The 1K is a Chosera. The others are Super Stones. I also have a yellow Belgian coticule. The Chosera comes with its own slurry stone, and I ordered a coticule slurry stone to go with the coticule. I learned only today that one doesn't use a slurry stone with the Super Stones. The stones should all arrive by the end of this week.

I've been talking about all this with a couple of experienced honers. Jarrod at Superior Shave recommends one other stone to round out the kit: a used 6x2 translucent Arkansas. (The reason for getting it used is to avoid the long break-in time.) I looked on eBay and the classifieds section at Straight Razor Place. I didn't see any used translucents available (except one that was too small on eBay).

So, here's the question: are there other good places to look to buy used translucent Arkansas stones? I'm hoping to come in at a price under $100. I don't need pretty, just functional.

Joe

 

[Brooksie967]

No idea about where to find them but that 'slurry' stone with the Chosera is really only meant to remove swarf from the stone: to clean it. You CAN use it like a slurry stone but from what I remember it's around 600 grit and it's VERY thirsty.

 

[J Carroll]

No idea about where to find them but that 'slurry' stone with the Chosera is really only meant to remove swarf from the stone: to clean it. You CAN use it like a slurry stone but from what I remember it's around 600 grit and it's VERY thirsty.

Ah. Someone else recommended to me that with the Super Stones use the DMT lapping plate frequently to clear the swarf. Would one not do that also with the Chosera?

Joe

 

[Brooksie967]

Ah. Someone else recommended to me that with the Super Stones use the DMT lapping plate frequently to clear the swarf. Would one not do that also with the Chosera?

Joe

Yep, and it's what I do, most guys just chuck that stone. If you have a DMT it's useless.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Why not just buy a new one and smooth it with some old carbon steel kitchen knives? That's what I did, in following Jarrod's advice, and it worked pretty well. Or, you could also try to hone out a chip on an old beater razor. That'll start to smooth it.

 

[Disburden]

Check ebay thats all I can say.
I used mine on really dull razors over and over to break them in.
Use oil or the Arkansas can clog with metal particles.

 

[J Carroll]

Why not just buy a new one and smooth it with some old carbon steel kitchen knives? That's what I did, in following Jarrod's advice, and it worked pretty well. Or, you could also try to hone out a chip on an old beater razor. That'll start to smooth it.

So, knives wear a hone in faster than a razor? I've been watching some videos on honing a razor. I haven't yet watched any on honing a knife, but I'm sure they're out there.

Say one set out to hone out a chip on an old razor? How long would it take to break in the stone, measuring in strokes, hours, or both?

Getting a new one would be fairly easy. Getting a used one is starting to look iffy. If I had some definite sense of how long it would take to break in a new one, how many strokes or hours of continuous honing, I'd be tempted just to get a new one.

Joe

 

[J Carroll]

Check ebay thats all I can say.
I used mine on really dull razors over and over to break them in.
Use oil or the Arkansas can clog with metal particles.

eBay and also the classified ads at Straight Razor Place. There is a section for hones and strops. There aren't any Arkansas hones up for sale just now, but there probably eventually will be. There are coticules, a Thuringer, some Japanese natural stones.

Joe

 

[Gamma]

Ah. Someone else recommended to me that with the Super Stones use the DMT lapping plate frequently to clear the swarf. Would one not do that also with the Chosera? Joe

You'll find that the red rubbing stone leaves a different surface on the 1k C than a DMT does.
I prefer to use the little stone, I think it's a better option.

 

[J Carroll]

You'll find that the red rubbing stone leaves a different surface on the 1k C than a DMT does.
I prefer to use the little stone, I think it's a better option.

Thanks for that information. Could you say a little more about the difference in the two surfaces?

Joe

 

[Gamma]

There's a few reasons but the main one is that I prefer the feedback off the stone after I've used the red stone.

Sometimes I use a chunk of a 1K C to clear it off - or to raise a slurry.
I've used the red stone to raise a slurry but it's coarse and it's only cool when doing heavy grunt work.

 

[Alum of Potash]

So, knives wear a hone in faster than a razor? I've been watching some videos on honing a razor. I haven't yet watched any on honing a knife, but I'm sure they're out there.

Say one set out to hone out a chip on an old razor? How long would it take to break in the stone, measuring in strokes, hours, or both?

Getting a new one would be fairly easy. Getting a used one is starting to look iffy. If I had some definite sense of how long it would take to break in a new one, how many strokes or hours of continuous honing, I'd be tempted just to get a new one.

Joe

First, let me acknowledge your enthusiasm if you have really purchased all these hones from the start. Some get by on a soft/black Ark combo stone, or a Norton or King water-stone combo. Disburden's advice regarding the oil with the Arks and rubbing with razors is worthy of note. I use Dan's honing oil for this or a concoction of one part mineral oil USP to one part kerosene (I also use nitrile gloves in wanting to avoid direct contact with petroleum products). For a 6 x 2 surface, just a few drops, maybe 3 or 4. What you want is just a thin surface of oil on the stone, spread out with the finger or the razor's spine; it is not like using water stones, where you are watching water wash up on the blade. Don't really have any precise answers regarding how long to pass an old knife or razor to smooth it. Two schools here: those who lap the trans or black Ark all the way to 2000x, or until it's so polished that it reflects completely, and those that use the stone straight out of the box or stop at 400x, so that the stone's usable surface only has a soft sheen. I'm of the latter school, more or less by default, as I have recurrent tennis elbow. I have broken in two trans Arks as follows. First, I bought a set of a dozen carbon dinner table knives at a flea market and knife-honed them at ~20 degrees, or until I could feel equal sharpness along the edge (8 x 2 stone here). This took place over a couple of weekends, off and on, from time to time. Afterwards, the surface of the stone had a dull sheen, and in honing my razors on it afterwards, the edge has always been nice. Second one was a 4 x 2 true hard (poor man's trans) which made for 1/2 the surface area of the 8 x 2. There, I decided to smooth it by completely restoring the edge on a couple of eBay junkers I'd just acquired--chips, bevel set, and polishing. This took place off and over the course of a couple of evenings; and while the edges were not what I wanted, the stone was on its way to having a sheen. Continued playing like this and it was soon rendering a nice edge.

Frankly, I don't see the need for mixing and matching water and oil-stones, though. Sure, you can go 1k, 5k, 8k, 12k Japanese synth ceramic stone. My limited experience in using the analogous Sigmas has shown me that 1.2k, 6k, 13k is enough there. At first, the resulting edge seemed too sharp/harsh, so I then made several passes on a black Ark to calm it down. This worked very well, and I suppose that this is what Jarrod has in mind when he counsels you to pick up a trans Ark "to round out things." Otherwise, a coticule after the 12k, to say nothing of using it after the 5k or 8k, would more or less be filling the same function, and I can't imagine progressing to a trans Ark after a coticule, although I'm sure some may swear by it. Thing is, the synthetic sequence in my case was capable of yielding a nice edge by itself in the end, rendering both the trans Ark and coticule moot in this regard. The trick was to use far less standing water, or the stones in a dampened state. Using water so as to watch it wash up along the blade, as is often recommended, caused abrasive to be released from the binder, which was the problem.

 

[J Carroll]

There's a few reasons but the main one is that I prefer the feedback off the stone after I've used the red stone.

Sometimes I use a chunk of a 1K C to clear it off - or to raise a slurry.
I've used the red stone to raise a slurry but it's coarse and it's only cool when doing heavy grunt work.

1K C? What does the C signify?

Joe

 

[J Carroll]

First, let me acknowledge your enthusiasm if you have really purchased all these hones from the start. Some get by on a soft/black Ark combo stone, or a Norton or King water-stone combo. Disburden's advice regarding the oil with the Arks and rubbing with razors is worthy of note. I use Dan's honing oil for this or a concoction of one part mineral oil USP to one part kerosene (I also use nitrile gloves in wanting to avoid direct contact with petroleum products). For a 6 x 2 surface, just a few drops, maybe 3 or 4. What you want is just a thin surface of oil on the stone, spread out with the finger or the razor's spine; it is not like using water stones, where you are watching water wash up on the blade. Don't really have any precise answers regarding how long to pass an old knife or razor to smooth it. Two schools here: those who lap the trans or black Ark all the way to 2000x, or until it's so polished that it reflects completely, and those that use the stone straight out of the box or stop at 400x, so that the stone's usable surface only has a soft sheen. I'm of the latter school, more or less by default, as I have recurrent tennis elbow. I have broken in two trans Arks as follows. First, I bought a set of a dozen carbon dinner table knives at a flea market and knife-honed them at ~20 degrees, or until I could feel equal sharpness along the edge (8 x 2 stone here). This took place over a couple of weekends, off and on, from time to time. Afterwards, the surface of the stone had a dull sheen, and in honing my razors on it afterwards, the edge has always been nice. Second one was a 4 x 2 true hard (poor man's trans) which made for 1/2 the surface area of the 8 x 2. There, I decided to smooth it by completely restoring the edge on a couple of eBay junkers I'd just acquired--chips, bevel set, and polishing. This took place off and over the course of a couple of evenings; and while the edges were not what I wanted, the stone was on its way to having a sheen. Continued playing like this and it was soon rendering a nice edge.

Frankly, I don't see the need for mixing and matching water and oil-stones, though. Sure, you can go 1k, 5k, 8k, 12k Japanese synth ceramic stone. My limited experience in using the analogous Sigmas has shown me that 1.2k, 6k, 13k is enough there. At first, the resulting edge seemed too sharp/harsh, so I then made several passes on a black Ark to calm it down. This worked very well, and I suppose that this is what Jarrod has in mind when he counsels you to pick up a trans Ark "to round out things." Otherwise, a coticule after the 12k, to say nothing of using it after the 5k or 8k, would more or less be filling the same function, and I can't imagine progressing to a trans Ark after a coticule, although I'm sure some may swear by it. Thing is, the synthetic sequence in my case was capable of yielding a nice edge by itself in the end, rendering both the trans Ark and coticule moot in this regard. The trick was to use far less standing water, or the stones in a dampened state. Using water so as to watch it wash up along the blade, as is often recommended, caused abrasive to be released from the binder, which was the problem.

Thanks. That's a lot of good information. I'm filing these notes in a document and will ponder them at leisure, taking in the details slowly.

When asked, Jarrod said it was OK to go from a synthetic 5K to a coticule as the finishing stone. His feeling, I gather, is that the synthetics tend toward producing a sharper but less smooth edge, and the coticules or Arks tend to produce an edge a bit less sharp but smoother. Stopping at an 8K with the synthetics and moving to finish with a coticule or Arkansas is one strategy.

I'm anticipating trying different sequences so that I can compare them: one sequence with nothing but the Naniwas; and another sequence with the coticule as a finishing stone. if I do obtain an Arkansas stone, I'll also try that.

I imagine Jarrod thinks the Arkansas stones and coticules do about the same thing, but with some differences of quality in the finished edge. I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking of mixing the two in a single sharpening process, but rather of using them as alternative finishing stones.

I gather one can go straight to the coticule after a 5K, an 8K, or smooth out the edge after a 12K.

Larry Andreassen at Whipped Dog provides a service in which he will send you a blade in need of honing; you hone it and send it back; and he gives you feedback on it. I figure if I go through a few of those exercises with Larry, using different combinations of stones, I'll get a better feel for how the different stones work.

When people lap the Arkansas stones to different levels of smoothness, what do they use as lapping stones? The only lapping stone I have so far is the DMT W250CX-WB 10-Inch DuoSharp Bench Stone Coarse/Extra-Coarse. Can you use any stone that is coarser than the stone being lapped, so that an Arkansas translucent could be lapped by a 2K waterstone?

Joe

 

[Alum of Potash]

Thanks. That's a lot of good information. I'm filing these notes in a document and will ponder them at leisure, taking in the details slowly.

When asked, Jarrod said it was OK to go from a synthetic 5K to a coticule as the finishing stone. His feeling, I gather, is that the synthetics tend toward producing a sharper but less smooth edge, and the coticules or Arks tend to produce an edge a bit less sharp but smoother. Stopping at an 8K with the synthetics and moving to finish with a coticule or Arkansas is one strategy.

I'm anticipating trying different sequences so that I can compare them: one sequence with nothing but the Naniwas; and another sequence with the coticule as a finishing stone. if I do obtain an Arkansas stone, I'll also try that.

I imagine Jarrod thinks the Arkansas stones and coticules do about the same thing, but with some differences of quality in the finished edge. I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking of mixing the two in a single sharpening process, but rather of using them as alternative finishing stones.

I gather one can go straight to the coticule after a 5K, an 8K, or smooth out the edge after a 12K.

Larry Andreassen at Whipped Dog provides a service in which he will send you a blade in need of honing; you hone it and send it back; and he gives you feedback on it. I figure if I go through a few of those exercises with Larry, using different combinations of stones, I'll get a better feel for how the different stones work.

When people lap the Arkansas stones to different levels of smoothness, what do they use as lapping stones? The only lapping stone I have so far is the DMT W250CX-WB 10-Inch DuoSharp Bench Stone Coarse/Extra-Coarse. Can you use any stone that is coarser than the stone being lapped, so that an Arkansas translucent could be lapped by a 2K waterstone?

Joe

Okay, I think I get it now. I agree that either the coticule or trans Ark could be used after the 5k or 8k, and I see where you're headed with the 12k as an alternative. One thing about the Arkansas stones: do not use the DMT hone (or synth stones for that matter) to lap them, since you will wreck diamond hones this way; if you are going to lap an Ark, use wet/dry sandpaper (with water or oil) or emery cloth (dry) or abrasive powder on a slab instead. Dan's Arks are normally flat out of the box, so it flattening isn't really needed there. Rubbing the stone with knives or a beater razor or two or three or four will work wonders in this regard, as mentioned above. Personally, I only use 220x-325x or 400 JIS diamond hones to lap 1k to whatever finishing k synth stones these days. Natural stones, coticules included, are lapped on sandpaper or emery cloth. Lapping with sandpaper or emery cloth should take place on a thick (1/4" or thicker) piece of glass or a dedicated, flat granite slab, etc.

 

[Mike H]

Dans Wetstone has a nice selection, a 6X2 translucent is $78, but may be too small for razors.

 

[J Carroll]

Okay, I think I get it now. I agree that either the coticule or trans Ark could be used after the 5k or 8k, and I see where you're headed with the 12k as an alternative. One thing about the Arkansas stones: do not use the DMT hone (or synth stones for that matter) to lap them, since you will wreck diamond hones this way; if you are going to lap an Ark, use wet/dry sandpaper (with water or oil) or emery cloth (dry) or abrasive powder on a slab instead. Dan's Arks are normally flat out of the box, so it flattening isn't really needed there. Rubbing the stone with knives or a beater razor or two or three or four will work wonders in this regard, as mentioned above. Personally, I only use 220x-325x or 400 JIS diamond hones to lap 1k to whatever finishing k synth stones these days. Natural stones, coticules included, are lapped on sandpaper or emery cloth. Lapping with sandpaper or emery cloth should take place on a thick (1/4" or thicker) piece of glass or a dedicated, flat granite slab, etc.

Again, very good information to have. Thank you.

Joe

 

[J Carroll]

Dans Wetstone has a nice selection, a 6X2 translucent is $78, but may be too small for razors.

I've bookmarked the Dan's Whetstone site. Thanks for that link!

Joe

 

[Gamma]

1K C? What does the C signify?

Joe

Chosera

 

[blackhhawk]

Why not just use the Coticule and a 1k stone for bevel setting? The syth stones might come easier, as the coti has a learning curve, being a bit more challenging than the synth stones. I'm currently going through this learning curve but yesterday was able to produce a smooth, shavable edge without excessive time spent trying to learn to use the coticule.